If you had to play one player out of position at 3B, would you go with a B/A+ 1B, or B+/B- OF? I'm assuming the OF, as he will take the smaller hit (only moving on spot on the spectrum, vs two).

That's a tough one. I would move the 1B. Good luck.

What does it mean o get a 2% or 4% hit?

their fielding percentage or range factor is decreased by 2% or 4%

Posted by 06gsp on 1/8/2024 7:36:00 AM (view original):
their fielding percentage or range factor is decreased by 2% or 4%

Thanks, 06, but what would a 2% decrease in fielding % or RF actually mean?

I will try to explain this as best I understand it. I am not 100% certain everything in this post is valid, but I believe this is how it works.

Step 1: Determine the primary position for the player in question.
Step 2: Identify his fielding percentage grade for that position.
Step 3: Determine the new position you want the player to play.
Step 4: Determine what fielding percentage your player's grade would be equivalent to at the new position.
Step 5: Multiply that fielding percentage by 0.98 (this is the 2% penalty for being out of position).
Step 6: If the player is moving to a more difficult spot on the defensive spectrum, then multiply the new fielding percentage by (1-.04x), where X = the number of spots moved. There is NO additional penalty assessed if the player is moving to an easier position on the spectrum.

For range, do the same calculations with RRF instead of FPct, and use 10% and 15% instead of 2% and 4%

For those unfamiliar, the defensive spectrum looks like this: DH --> 1B --> OF --> 3B --> 2B --> SS. So moving a 2B to SS would be a 1-slot move, and in step 6 above, you would use 0.96 as the multiplier. Moving from 1B to SS would be a 4-slot move, so you would use 0.84 as the multiplier in Step 6.

Example calculation: moving 2012 Paul Konerko to SS.
Step 1: Konerko's primary position in 2012 was 1B
Step 2: Konerko's fielding rating at 1B in 2012 was A+
Step 3: We are moving him to SS
Step 4: You need to do a draft center search at this point. Find the median fielding percentage for all SS who are rated A+ in fielding. When I do this search, I get 0.987
Step 5: Since Konerko is playing out of position, multiply the number from step 4 by 0.98: 0.987*0.98 = 0.967
Step 6: Since Konerko is moving 4 slots in the harder direction, multiply the result from step 5 by 0.84: 0.967*0.84 = 0.812

Konerko's expected fielding percentage at SS is 0.812. He will be terrible.

Example calculation: Moving 2006 Adam Everett to 2B
Step 1: Everett's primary position in 2006 was SS
Step 2: His fielding rating was A+
Step 3: We are moving him to 2B
Step 4: The median fielding percentage for all 2B who are rated A+ is 0.995 or 0.996, depending on what PA cutoff you want to use. I will assume 0.996
Step 5: Since Everett is playing out of position, multiply the number from step 4 by 0.98: 0.996*0.98=0.976
Step 6: There is no additional penalty since Everett is moving to an easier position.

Everett's expected fielding percentage at 2B is 0.976. This is equivalent to a B rated second baseman.

Last note: I am not sure how catcher works, and in particular what happens if you more a catcher to another position. All I know for sure is that playing someone at catcher who is not rated there is an absolute disaster.

I would really like to understand which players make less terrible catchers when they are unrated there. I vaguely remember a theme league around it, and I think it was inconclusive- the best players were like a good fielding shortstop and a mediocre outfielder.

The most important thing, I think, to understand about this process is that moving any player to a more demanding defensive position will almost always result in very poor performance, especially if the move involves shifting more than one slot along the spectrum. Here's one more example to illustrate, and it's useful to contrast this example with the Adam Everett and Paul Knoerko ones above.

Example calculation: Moving 1973 Bobby Grich to SS
Step 1: Grich's primary position in 1973 was 2B
Step 2: His fielding rating was A+
Step 3: We are moving him to SS
Step 4: The median fielding percentage for all SS who are rated A+ is 0.987 or 0.986, depending on what PA cutoff you want to use. I will assume 0.986
Step 5: Since Grich is playing out of position, multiply the number from step 4 by 0.98: 0.986*0.98=0.966
Step 6: Since Grich is moving one slot on the defensive spectrum, in the more difficult direction, multiple the result in step 5 by 0.96. 0.966*0.96=0.928

Grich's expected fielding percentage at SS is 0.928. This is equivalent to a D rated shortstop.

So moving an A+ rated SS to 2B is probably fine. Everett will be a serviceable 2B, perhaps even a good one. Moving an A+ rated 2B to SS is almost certainly a very bad idea. Grich will make a ton of errors at SS. I am in a 1973 progressive with an owner who is learning this lesson painfully in real time.

And remember, the resulting performance will be even worse if the starting point is less than A+, and it will be much MUCH worse if moving more than 1 spot along the spectrum. Contrast Konerko with Grich. Grich will be bad, but not a sieve. Konerko will be horrendous.

Two things I am uncertain about in this calculation:

1.) In step 4, is the right starting point the median fielding percentage for the given grade at the new position? Every grade at every position maps to a range of fielding percentages. If a guy is in the top decile for that range at his original position, does he map to the top decile at his new position? Maybe. I don't know.
2.) Do steps 5 and 6 happen sequentially, or all at once? In other words, is the right calculation for Grich the one that I illustrated above (e.g. 0.986*0.98*0.96 = 0.928) or should the two penalties be combined into one (e.g. 0.986*0.94 = 0.927)? In most cases, the results are very close, but mathematically they are not exactly the same.

I've gone about as far as I can with this. If other owners have additional info, or have a different understanding of how the process works, I would be grateful for them to share their knowledge.

Are we sure that secondary position fielding grades are irrelevant? I’ve been (needlessly?) hesitant to play players out of position when they have very bad fielding grades at a secondary position where they only played a couple games.

This thread (and my calculations) only apply when moving a player to a position where he has NO rating at all. If a player has a rating, then that rating is all that matters.

Contrarian23 wrote:
Last note: I am not sure how catcher works. All I know is that playing a catcher at any other position is bad, and playing someone at catcher who is not rated there is an absolute disaster.


After reading this post I decided to gather and post some data on playing a catcher out of position

I played the 1976 Butch Wynegar at 1B the last 28 games of the season Wynegar's ratings at C are C/B/A- (.978/5.31)

Pos	GP	GS	Inn	E	Throw E	PO	A	DP	Good Plays	Poor Plays	F. Pct
1B	28	28	240	0	0	269	14	14	1	4	1

Make of that data what you will

PS

FWIW one of his 4 minus plays was as follows:

CISH - L.Barker lays down a sacrifice bunt to 1B. All runners advance. (man on 1st advanced to 2nd)

So they got the out on the bunt anyway but I guess the minus implies it should have been a DP?

Posted by crazyamos on 1/10/2024 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Are we sure that secondary position fielding grades are irrelevant? I’ve been (needlessly?) hesitant to play players out of position when they have very bad fielding grades at a secondary position where they only played a couple games.

I think I misunderstood this post the first time I read it. It now seems to me like you are asking if secondary position grades factor into the calculation. So if a guy is a 1B with B+/B+, and has a secondary position at, say, 2B where he is D-/D-, does that secondary position rating factor in if you play this guy at SS. The short answer is that I believe - but cannot say for sure - that the 2B rating is not factored into the calculation.

If anyone knows for sure that I am incorrect, I would like to know (and would love to see the source for that information).

Posted by akira_hokuto on 1/18/2024 7:12:00 PM (view original):
Contrarian23 wrote:
Last note: I am not sure how catcher works. All I know is that playing a catcher at any other position is bad, and playing someone at catcher who is not rated there is an absolute disaster.


After reading this post I decided to gather and post some data on playing a catcher out of position

I played the 1976 Butch Wynegar at 1B the last 28 games of the season Wynegar's ratings at C are C/B/A- (.978/5.31)

Pos	GP	GS	Inn	E	Throw E	PO	A	DP	Good Plays	Poor Plays	F. Pct
1B	28	28	240	0	0	269	14	14	1	4	1

Make of that data what you will

PS

FWIW one of his 4 minus plays was as follows:

CISH - L.Barker lays down a sacrifice bunt to 1B. All runners advance. (man on 1st advanced to 2nd)

So they got the out on the bunt anyway but I guess the minus implies it should have been a DP?

thanks for doing this, no errors in 240 innings is pretty strong

i think for the minus play theyre saying he should have gotten the lead runner. poor range pitchers frequently get minus plays for this.