Feedback - Page 3 - SimLeague Basketball

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Seble,

I find it kind of ironic that you're asking for feedbacks now. I mean a lot of us ,your regular customers, have been giving feedbacks and trying to get your attention for months about some issues and we've received nothing back from you, nothing at all. Just when things were starting to look up, after the 2008 players release and the engine upgrades, I remember you working with us and what happened was an adjustment on player position eff ratings and some badly needed improvements on fouls distribution. We even had a truce on these forums where even guys like colonels19 and monkee where off your back. And then nothing, you vanished...

I thought I was hooked to this game but when I saw the lack of interest by you and other sitestaff I realized you guys had basically quit on us and decided the game was going to stale as it was.

Too bad, the game was getting better but you lost me there. I just can't stay interested when I keep seeing the same flaws and bugs messing up the game and realize you guys don't care to work on them.

5/13/2009 4:23 PM

longtallbrad

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I'm hoping those who really want to keep playing the game can take advantage of this opportunity to provide constructive input. I don't really understand the attention from those who say they're done with it. If a handful of helpful changes result from the ideas in this thread, I'll be happy. I understand that some owners also see important issues with tone and frequency of communication from WIS staff, but if that's the case then make a specific suggestion and let's move on.

Peace.

5/13/2009 4:27 PM

bball_jones

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Yea longtall, take advantage of this opportunity and then what, have Seble tell us he's too busy to follow-up?

If I still read and occasionally post it's cause I still feel like playing but I'm waiting to see if the investment of time and money is worth it. What I'm saying is , I'd like to know if WIS is serious about the NBA sim or if it's last in line behind clutch racing and soccer dynasty...

I have to agree with what ashamael has been posting recently, and you can't say he's the whinny type, he like many of us cares enough to take time to play the game see what's wrong with it and post suggestions... that have been unadressed for the last six months.

peace

5/13/2009 4:38 PM

longtallbrad

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I hear you. I'm hoping that once the suggestions are collected, seble can give a clear signal on what changes they plan to make, and some explanation for why other suggestions aren't being taken up at this point (low priority, too costly, whatever).

Honestly, my biggest quibble with the sim right now, by far, is that the current version has been in place long enough that the same lineups are winning over and over again. Something needs to change to keep things interesting and competitive.

5/13/2009 4:49 PM

bball_jones

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Quote: Originally Posted By longtallbrad on 5/13/2009

I hear you. I'm hoping that once the suggestions are collected, seble can give a clear signal on what changes they plan to make, and some explanation for why other suggestions aren't being taken up at this point (low priority, too costly, whatever).

Honestly, my biggest quibble with the sim right now, by far, is that the current version has been in place long enough that the same lineups are winning over and over again. Something needs to change to keep things interesting and competitive.

You just hammered the nail. I remember the last few leagues I was in and even if I won one of them I was getting really bored with playing vs the same players and same strategies over and over.

That is also why I'm kind of skeptical about what Seble posted;

'We as a company are moving toward a model of larger, less frequent releases with the hope that it will allow the games to stabilize more and allow us to package changes better.'

Stabilize as in stagnate?...

5/13/2009 5:04 PM

monkee

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Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 5/13/2009
That seems a bit extreme so I'd have to see that, but for anyone following the Lakers/Rockets series, it's pretty clear the same team can perform much differently from one game to the next.

there is a significant difference between the way human beings behave and the way stat tables tied to cap valuation for competitive balance in a simulation should behave

5/13/2009 6:16 PM

ncmusician_7

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Things already mentioned that I agree with:

defensive assignments - the ability to match up a specific defender on a specific offensive player

variable league sizes

organic stoppage in play so that there are more opportunities for substitution

there is a clear cut salary imbalance between offensive and defensive stats

players from the 60s/70s have better 3pt shooting statistics than the players of the 80s (maybe the made up 3s shouldn’t be there at all)

The basis for position efficiency ratings seems opaque and inconsistent (sometimes very inconsistent from season to season)

situational setting and substitutions at the end of games

Delete rookies or make them all equal

Giving us TOV% (turnover percentage) as a viewable, searchable and sortable stat

Some other things:

(1) Taken from the MLB sim: “Added a process to automatically remove unfilled theme leagues with fewer than 4 teams and that have been setting for over 30 days without anyone new joining within the last 30 days.”

(2) Fix the partial season salaries (they’re too low and I can give numerous examples if needed)

(3) Specify which player should be subbed in for a starter that has fouled out

5/13/2009 6:46 PM

colonels19

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Quote: Originally Posted By cdew8 on 5/13/2009
Kinda like how a team can win by 2 points then lose by 58 two days later to the exact same team? Random stuff like that never happens in the real NBA.

And what a guy like you doesn't understand is the fact that these are stat tables v. stat tables, not human beings v. human beings. There are SO MANY other things in real life that can affect the outcome of a game (individual player emotion, crowd impact, good/bad officiating, coach motivation/energy, etc) that have no place in a game that is supposed to decide winners and losers based upon STATS and TEAM COMPOSITION.

Stat tables are FINITE and are accumulations of what happened over the course of an ENTIRE SEASON, THEREFORE, I don't expect my sim stat tables (players) to have the ups and downs of actual human players because they aren't human beings whose production is based on so many uncontrollable factors and INFINITE possibilities. Monkee has argued this in the past and I'm sure he'll back me here too.

The admins in power here continually fail to see that "extreme" randomness is a constant/persistent problem with their game and as long as they do so, their game will always be in the same vat of quicksand that its always known...its really that cut and dry.

If I thought the game worked how it should, would I really be leaving/stop playing?

5/13/2009 10:58 PM

colonels19

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Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 5/13/2009That seems a bit extreme so I'd have to see that, but for anyone following the Lakers/Rockets series, it's pretty clear the same team can perform much differently from one game to the next

Please read my reply to cdew...this isn't real life, and the fact that THIS VERY SIM predicted Cleveland over Portland in the 2009 NBA Finals says a lot about the perceived quality of the game.

Again, people are talking boycotts and suggesting NUMEROUS improvements, and all you're still doing is making excuses...I mean, really? The sad part is, is that you don't really know what it means to own up to your flaws/faults as a sim engine creator and customer servant...

5/13/2009 11:01 PM

colonels19

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Quote: Originally Posted By monkee on 5/13/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 5/13/2009
That seems a bit extreme so I'd have to see that, but for anyone following the Lakers/Rockets series, it's pretty clear the same team can perform much differently from one game to the next.
there is a significant difference between the way human beings behave and the way stat tables tied to cap valuation for competitive balance in a simulation should behave

I didn't read this post until now, but monkee is 110% correct as usual...him and I are harping on the same things, and I listen to the smart/logical/sensible people that can see both the GOOD and BAD of the things that they participate in in life.

You can all say that monkee has been a jerk over the last umpteen years, but those of you that were there for the monkee-seble wars (if you will), what kind of responses was monkee getting from seble during those times?...sarcastic, arrogant, "we're right, you're wrong" responses...so what's a guy supposed to do?

Monkee is a customer I would LOVE TO HAVE because he's going to be that guy that is always going to be holding me to that high standard and questioning the product when it isn't working correctly. I just wish the people in charge here would see Monkee's constructive criticism for what it is and understand that his attitude/demeanor didn't manifest into what it is today, overnight...

5/13/2009 11:10 PM

longtallbrad

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Quote: Originally posted by ncmusician_7 on 5/13/2009
players from the 60s/70s have better 3pt shooting statistics than the players of the 80s (maybe the made up 3s shouldn’t be there at all)

I'm curious about this point. Can you give some examples, and explain why this is a problem?

My experience so far is that guys from the early '80s on backward might have good 3pt percentages but it's fairly moot because they almost never shoot threes. There are very few exceptions from what I can tell, and those who do jack up threes (like Dunleavy, Sr., Sam Jones and Pistol Pete) were famous for their deep range. But again, what are the specific anomalies you're seeing?

5/14/2009 9:40 AM

zizzo24

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While we have your ear I gotta few for you Seble. I don't think it's anything that hasn't been brought up by myself or someone else at some point (except #6):

1) It's been brought up before and I have no idea how hard it would be to implement but I'd love to see in season trades as an option. Just like the hockey and baseball SIM have in place. You can make it a check box option when setting up a league that way the leagues that wish to use it can.

2) Another check box option to have different sized rosters. One for the standard 12 man roster and one for a 15 man roster option. Again not sure if that's an easy change but it would give yet another option for creating leagues.

3) How about the downloadable spreadsheet like the baseball SIM has at season's end. That would be an excellent addition especially for those of us that keep track of the stats for ongoing leagues or for anyone that wants to keep a copy of league's they've been in.

4) It would be great if someday we can tie together seasons like they do in baseball for the ongoing/prog & reg leagues. Just a nice little feature for those of us obsessed with stats.

5) Another one that's already been mentioned but using some sort of draft forum where you can put all the players in a given draft into a queue - kinda like fantasy drafts on various other sites. If done properly it would certainly cut down on confusion and time for leagues that have some sort of draft.

6) Lastly and this should be an easy one. I'd like to request a few name changes:

Ronald/Flip Murray - Can we just call him Flip Murray for all his seasons?

Maurice/Mo Williams - Can we just call him Mo Williams for all his seasons?

Rasho/Radoslav Nesterovic - Can we use one name or the other?

Bison Dele/Brian Williams - is there a way to tie the search engine to list both names when searching for him?

The Eddie Johnson's. Since they play over the same time frame it gets extremely confusing to which one is which. Can we add the "A." to the one that went to Illinois and played from 1981-82 to 1998-99 (Kings, Suns, Sonics, Hornets, Pacers, Rockets). This would help cut down on confusion especially for prog leagues.

The Michael Smith's. They have one season that overlaps and they both have the same middle name (John). But to cut down on potential confusion can we make one of them Michael J. Smith and leave the other one as Michael Smith?

The two Walter Davis's. Can the one that played during the 50's just be called Walt Davis?

The two Dee Brown's. Can the one from the 90's be Dee K. Brown?

The two Jim Paxson's. Can the elder be Jim E. Paxson?

08-09 Mike Dunleavy - can we add the Jr. like his other seasons since his daddy has the exact same name - again cuts down on confusion.

Marc Iavaroni - There's a couple of seasons where he's listed as Mark - probably should be Marc.

Micheal Williams - There's a couple of seasons where he's listed as Michael Williams.

Here's a few more nitpicky name changes - all these guys have inconsistencies with a capital letter missing for their names in the database:

B.J. Armstrong
J.R. Reid
Raef LaFrentz
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Tariq Abdul-Wahad
Rusty LaRue
Todd MacCulloch
Don MacLean

Thanks for taking the time guys.

5/14/2009 10:07 AM

monkee

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Quote: Originally Posted By longtallbrad on 5/14/2009
Quote: Originally posted by ncmusician_7 on 5/13/2009
players from the 60s/70s have better 3pt shooting statistics than the players of the 80s (maybe the made up 3s shouldn’t be there at all)

I'm curious about this point. Can you give some examples, and explain why this is a problem?

My experience so far is that guys from the early '80s on backward might have good 3pt percentages but it's fairly moot because they almost never shoot threes. There are very few exceptions from what I can tell, and those who do jack up threes (like Dunleavy, Sr., Sam Jones and Pistol Pete) were famous for their deep range. But again, what are the specific anomalies you're seeing

guys who NEVER TOOK A 3 irl take more in WIS terms than many players from the 80s who could take 3 s but simply didnt much because stylistically and strategically the 3 wasnt a big factor in the 80s

AND because they take those 3s their efg%, and PPG is actually higher than it was IRL -why? to equalize across eras. guess what? It's not equal

5/15/2009 1:04 AM

ashamael

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Quote: Originally posted by ashamael on 5/13/2009Seble, my problem in the inconsistency comes when far superior team in every statistical category, completely rested from a bye while his opponent went 6 or 7 games, loses a game 7 series.

The primary reason for that particular case was FTAs/PFs. I'll look up the numbers real quick.

okay here it is:

Quote: Originally posted by ashamael on 4/25/2009Team one has:2,779 ftas and 1,621 pfs over 19,948 minutes.
(roughly 33.4 and 19.5 per 48min with 5 on floor)

Team two has:
3,242 ftas and 1,288 pfs over 20,260 minutes.
(roughly 38.4 and 15.3 per 48min with 5 on floor)

Here's their playoff series (7 games):

161 ftas 109 pf
137 ftas 114 pf

Guess which is which.

I should also mention that 4 out of Team One's starters were sub 100% fatigue (one of them at 91%) by series end, while all of Team Two's starters were 100% throughout.
This is a seven game series. Not only were the two teams far apart in RL pf vs ftas, the team with that should have had the edge (we're talking 7 game series, where advantages tend to average out to truth) was much much much more rested, with the other team not (so in essence should have been performing slightly worse than their RL stats in this regard).

I can take a loss when there are reasons for it. Hell, I can take a loss when there aren't - I'll congratulate my opponent and tell them gl in the next round. But it's pretty ridiculous to spend money on players with low foul tendencies and many ftas only to get way outperformed in a 7-game-series by a team who didn't spend the money in either place that is already pretty severely fatigued.

That's some of the inconsistency Trevor's talking about.

I'd also like to point out that team one ran half court/half court, while team two ran up-tempo/half-court. Again, team two should be generating more fouls.

5/15/2009 2:41 AM

canesyanks13

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In my limited experience, it seems like their just aren't enough Styles Of Play. Half-Court, Up-Tempo, and Slow-Down don't give you very many options. Plus, there is very little attention paid to "Situational" O. What happens is: With less than 5 seconds in a quarter, the team will call TO and set up a shot. Also, if your team has Maravich, Freddie Brown, Reggie Miller, etc. wouldn't you want the 3-Point Style the WHOLE GAME?? I think that three options for styles of play is not enough.

5/15/2009 2:45 AM

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