help me out, nice - that is not what you did - you suggested i go after those in direct competition with you

end of story

i have coached more seasons than anyone in this game(tracyr/yschwartz/shtickless_1/dickenscider/_sim_ai/laura_tracy,etc) , and it's not close - and in all my seasons i have never ever seen anything this freakin arrogant

you are completely wrong in what you did, there is no other way to look at it

as for some of your stupid comments - oregon in a downward spiral? sure - due to an increased lack of relatively decent recruits in the northwest over the past 8 seasons - and general apathy - due in large part to morons like you in this game - i am only playing out the string because admin won't let me give the seasons away

for me to have responded in any way to those unsolicited sitemails - would have been collusion - just the mere acknowledgement of the sitemails could be seen as such

you are the douchebag who put me in the bad position by your sheer arrogance

Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 12/14/2009johnner, i think you'd agree that colorado is by far the most dangerous team to you, long term, outside your conference. im not saying you maliciously attacked them, but i think you should certainly respect the situation and should not influence anybody to compete with them, in any way. doing so is certainly an advantage, right?

i also think you gain an advantage in general from your first message. you would probably never had somebody post about it if you stopped there. anyway, letting a guy know somebody is a prime target of your certainly affects their decision, and i am pretty confident it is in your favor. i get plenty of sitemails when my prestige gets high, asking if i am going for this guy or that guy, or maybe everybody who i am going for. it seems most people don't want to waste money losing a battle to the A/A+ prestige schools, its just not worth it, they would much rather just know who you wanted and steer clear. so i really cannot see how your site mail, which honestly comes across as bullying, does not give you an advantage...

"He's going to cost you approximately 60K for this guy if I don't put any more into him. I have the prestige advantage and a significant chunk into him because I knew I would be competing with other high prestige schools for him. Consider this a helping hand and know that I could still double my investment if I needed to because I had quite a bit of cash on hand to start recruiting. I hate to see great programs strike out in recruiting."

IMO that sounds a lot more like bullying me than a helping hand. its like, just so you know, there is no way you can win this guy, so don't waste your time trying. sure, it is better for both schools if he looks elsewhere, rather than spend all his money and lose. but, its not better for the community. and i don't see where you could draw the line of acceptability between discussing who will get a recruit after recruiting starts and before

I understand where you are going with this billyg, but I am not sure most other coaches think about their competition's long term ability during recruiting. sure, if you were worried about money or competiting with CO, and you could get somebody else to go in on one of his guys at the same time, that is helpful... but looking down the road 3-5 seasons (moving from C+ to solid A range at CO) is a little bit further reaching than most people do on here.

But agreed on the 1st sitemail - I would feel comfortable with this 1st sitemail if it would have been done on the CC's, where everybody has access to it, and they can determine whether it is a bluff or not.

Quote: Originally Posted By orrdc on 12/14/2009

Quote: Originally posted by grecianfox on 12/14/200
I don't like recruiting sitemails to begin with. Number one could be interpreted as gamesmanship. The second sitemail in which he suggests targets is just plain awful.

Awful, yes. However, maybe he should of taken some advice, looks like a 5 ship 0 signed disaster.

From a total outside opinion, while I agree it might be "wrong", it seems like this jonner was actually trying to help. YW didn't head his advice, battled an A+ came up totally empty and now as a last recourse decided to post the sitemails.

Second, in no way do I see how this would violate fair play guidelines, what exactly did he "DO"

wrong - actually, i was AHEAD when i posted the sitemails

Quote: Originally Posted By johnner26 on 12/14/2009
You know I happen to have been on the short end of the stick in recruiting and I thought I was helping the guy out. Clearly Schwartz has problems with how that went down. There was no collusion--just some feedback from what I would do if I were him. I don't control any of the teams I made comments on and if I had to do it all over again (and if Schwartz wasn't such a DB)--I would.

Honestly if anyone has a problem with what I did--they can man up and we can talk about it. Or they can throw it up on the board like Oregon did and wait for a lynch mob to come and help out.

Regardless, check the rules--I didn't do anything that I wouldn't be comfortable doing again. When I start to actually collude with other coaches then feel free to pull out your pichforks.

In the end--Oregon loses big time, screws up his season and then tries to throw me under the bus for attempting to help him out...whatever. Lesson learned. Enjoy your season Schwartz!

Ok, so we can get those out now, since you did break the rules?

i know you are frustrated with all of this, johnner, and i dont mean to prolong it, but when you said above that you just wont help anyone out int he future, I hope that was specific to this type of situation, because elite coaches helping out newbies is one of the great things about HD. I hope you will ocntinue to help newdudes in general, just not in these types of recruiting situations.

(actually, now that i think about it, hasnt scwartzy been around longer than God?)

...
(yeah, 234 seasons. he's been around a while. which is another point here , schwartzy obviously knew what he was doing. some might disagree with his strategy, but i think he knew exactly what he was doing. he was taking a big risk, and he had to know that. but there is nothing in the rules about making questionable choices or taking big risks)

(as it turned out, i was the stupid one. had i thought about the possibility that the john's battle with schwartzy was actually an all-out war, i would have gone after one of the foreigners that i liked so much (that john probably signed for a pittance). .... and that... i think ...is the real danger. if a bigfish school is able to scare off each of the little fish school's one at a time ... well intentioned or not, then they increase their power dramatically in any battles that do come up)


sorry to ramble.

and this is the first time i have ever lost a battle when a coach sent me an e-mail about a player basically wanting me off said recruit so they didnt have to spend more money

funny that this turd didnt chime in until he actually GOT the recruit

okay, one last thought..

lets say that schwarzie was not scwartzie, but a newdude.

and lets say he takes johnboy's advice.

and lets say it saves him $40 or $50K. then, ultimately, he will likely win a different battle with another coach that he otherwise wuold prolly not have won. so, helping one guy, is huritng someone else, in all likelihood.

John, at this point, my comments are not really directed at you an schwartz, but just using that as an example.

this is an important issue and while i prefer that it had not come to a head in this manner, i think it warrants much discussion and hopefully an appearance from the big guy.

had i done anything but put more money into that recruit - it would be collusion 100 pct, plain and simple

Quote: Originally Posted By tracyr on 12/14/2009
help me out, nice - that is not what you did - you suggested i go after those in direct competition with you

end of story

i have coached more seasons than anyone in this game(tracyr/yschwartz/shtickless_1/dickenscider/_sim_ai/laura_tracy,etc) , and it's not close - and in all my seasons i have never ever seen anything this freakin arrogant

you are completely wrong in what you did, there is no other way to look at it

as for some of your stupid comments - oregon in a downward spiral? sure - due to an increased lack of relatively decent recruits in the northwest over the past 8 seasons - and general apathy - due in large part to morons like you in this game - i am only playing out the string because admin won't let me give the seasons away

Great--then your comments really add a lot to the discussion. Thanks

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this is not the first and probably wont be the last time this type situation has come up.
I think admins past and present have been pretty clear... Ya cant collude.. Telling someone to back off is collusion. END OF STORY...
Nothing personal to the parties involved and Ive had my share of scrapes with Tracy in the past, but he is pure as driven snow in this one!
Johnner's action crosses the line
1. When he warns someone off (as many have said if nothing else it creates an advantage for both)
2. When he gives advice about other options on the board that belong to teams that could in theory affect both of them. (so many possible ways this could hurt opponents help both of them.
3. When he SPENDS FSS money to help out?? Surprised no one as mentioned this... Not a big deal.. but DAMN..

Quote: Originally Posted By tracyr on 12/14/2009
for me to have responded in any way to those unsolicited sitemails - would have been collusion - just the mere acknowledgement of the sitemails could be seen as such

you are the douchebag who put me in the bad position by your sheer arrogance

Maybe it was your sheer arrogance that caused the downward spiral at Oregon. Who sounds arrogant if you read the last couple of posts. Clearly my feedback was arrogant which means you were obviously above it. No problem--next time let me know you think I'm arrogant before I go out and spend a few grand on FFS for you to try and help you out. It's costing me way too much to be arrogant here...help out a brother! Oh, that's right, I'm not your brother.

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/14/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By johnner26 on 12/14/2009

You know I happen to have been on the short end of the stick in recruiting and I thought I was helping the guy out. Clearly Schwartz has problems with how that went down. There was no collusion--just some feedback from what I would do if I were him. I don't control any of the teams I made comments on and if I had to do it all over again (and if Schwartz wasn't such a DB)--I would.

Honestly if anyone has a problem with what I did--they can man up and we can talk about it. Or they can throw it up on the board like Oregon did and wait for a lynch mob to come and help out.

Regardless, check the rules--I didn't do anything that I wouldn't be comfortable doing again. When I start to actually collude with other coaches then feel free to pull out your pichforks.

In the end--Oregon loses big time, screws up his season and then tries to throw me under the bus for attempting to help him out...whatever. Lesson learned. Enjoy your season Schwartz!

Ok, so we can get those out now, since you did break the rules

Sure--as soon as Seble or admin gets with me and tells me that I broke the rules. Since you don't qualify...let's put that thought on hold.

If he is sending out these types of sitemails to coaches he doesnt know, I can only imagine the emails being sent between these teams as they draft their players. Its probably no coincidence that you never see them battling for recruits, even during the first cycle. And to come off like he was trying to help is beyond me. He was trying to help himself save money.