All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > SimLeague Baseball > The Promotion of The Fatigue Strategy
1/9/2010 7:17 PM
(Pardon my rant.)

In a current champs league I am using the 900 IP John Clarkson. I drafted him solely because I've heard over and over for years that he is virtually unusable, and since I've had success with Silver King, Ed Morris, Tim Keefe, and the '85 Caruthers while getting them between 95-105 starts and 700-900 IP each, I figured I might be able to get some value out of Clarkson.

72 games into the season he has 43 starts and 42 CG for 378.33 IP. His other numbers are atrocious, especially for playing in a pitcher friendly park in the hope of minimizing his tendency to give up HRs. He has a .291 OAV, 1.55 WHIP, and has given up 41 HRs. He's roughly on pace for 850-860 IP and 96-100 CG.

Aside from the problems of running into fatigue issues such that it makes it impossible to get the IP you're paying for (by my count 902+10%, so when you factor in the pitches, somewhere between 950-1,050 depending on the league specific variables), it is impossible to waive Clarkson. His record is 10-33, and he's been a complete bust.

I would have liked to waive him several times, especially recently when there was both a '12 and '13 Walter Johnson on the WW. However, due to the IP minimums (Of note, because of appearance fatigue and early season fatigue and having to burn through pitchers other than Clarkson over the first dozen games, I actually brought more IP than I normally would with 1,357), it is impossible for me to release Clarkson in any form or fashion. Given the relative rarity of high inning pitchers on the WW it seems neigh impossible to release any pitchers with more than 400 IP. Granted you could get lucky here and there, but even as someone who has maybe only used the WW 3 or 4 times in all of my seasons combined, this will certainly make me think twice before drafting any pitchers with more than 400 IP. And I certainly won't be drafting any pitchers with more than 600 again as the chance of replacing a dud (or miscalculation) is virtually none.

Along with the appearance and early-season fatigue, which forces you to not start Clarkson for the first 9-12 games if you want to get more than 81 starts out of him, but seriously taxes the rest of your staff.

These anti-fatigue strategy measures in the form of IP minimums serve to only push the fatigue strategy. These minimums virtually force users to draft as few IP and as high quality as possible , while filling in a waive-able gap in $200k scrubs who will eat IP against select opponents (let's face it, there are too many ways around injuries and 0% anyway, so that doesn't stop them from being burned through up to the transaction deadline and then waived for a single usable RP or spot starter).

Admin can't fix the fatigue system soon enough, but in the meantime, these stop-gaps aren't helping curb gaming strategies such as the fatigue strategy, but are rather encouraging more such strategies. Makes it difficult to play with joy when in order to win you have to resort to various strategies to game the system instead of enjoying being able to use a variety of players in relatively realistic scenarios.

Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't always play to win anyway, but find as much pleasure in discovering flaws or exploitable strategies as I do in winning, but I enjoy finding them so they can be fixed to create a better game, not to take advantage of the game. And it's with that that I find these minimums particularly grievous.
1/9/2010 8:45 PM
Welcome to the John Clarkson Haters Club.

To do well in a Champs League, you have to do the unexpected. You did the unexpected. It did not work out.

The Fatigue Stratagy does not work as well, post update IMO. I have a fatigue team in an OL right now and they are 3-4 games out of a wild card with 30 games and they are just too tired to make it to the end.

Looking at the teams that have made it to the WS in my OL's, I can not discover any breakthrough new wrinkles yet.
1/9/2010 9:02 PM
Well, so far my problem isn't with John Clarkson, I believe I could get Clarkson to his full potential without the problems of how fatigue is handled (and I'll likely try to or three more times before I call it quits), but my biggest problem is with the arbitrary limits that prevent me from doing anything about it in the current system.

I would hardly say that the fatigue strategy doesn't work as well post update. From what I've seen of various attempts in a few different leagues, it appears to be just as viable as ever. In fact, just for kicks, my next team will be a play on the fatigue strategy (though since I don't have time to manage my team it'll be old school style, original "How to Win With 800 IP/162" fatigue strategy)...
1/11/2010 7:18 AM
IMO, the highest inning pitcher that should be used is Silver King. Better numbers than Clarkson, cheaper, and he'll still give you 81 starts with ease.
1/15/2010 9:03 AM
i agree with Dtown
1/15/2010 9:10 AM
So does everybody, really. J4M is just trying to push the limits...
1/20/2010 3:13 PM
I often employ the strategy of 2 450 IP or more pitchers in open leagues with both starting 81 games. I usually set their pitch count to 75 - 85 and unless they are used in relief in extra inning games I don't run into fatigue issues. Stratton is the highest number of innings I have ever tried (I believe 525 IP) but he still only started 81 games. This stategy allows me to have 9 to 11 low inning relievers, usually preventing fatigued pitchers from having to pitch. I have had great success with this strategy prior to the update, I haven't played in an open league since the update as I've evolved into a theme league live player. Over time I've had the most success with the 495 IP Walsh, he once had 51 wins for me.
1/20/2010 8:13 PM
But that's just it, I'm not interested in getting them 81 starts. I want Clarkson to start at least 101 games (his GS/162 according to WIS) and King to to push between 750-800 IP (which he isn't going to do in 81 starts).

Yet, you can't get a pitcher more than 81 starts or appearances unless you manipulate the fatigue system, that's my beef. In order to accomplish something that was (more or less) accomplished in RL, you have to game the system to an extent, and in doing so, it encourages you to also manipulate the system in other ways. As it stands, any pitcher with more than 81 appearances or 660 IP/162, is a waste of money as you pay for stats that either hurt you, or are unusable without gaming the system (and in Clarkson's case, at all).

I don't want to have a distinct advantage by gaming the system with partial season players with amazing stats, and I don't want to be forced to game the system to fully utilize certain other player/seasons (Clarkson, King, Marshall, etc...)...

I know admin is already working on a fatigue system fix... my point is just that it can't come soon enough.
1/21/2010 11:30 AM
I agree it would be cool if you could get 800 even 900 IP out of those guys maybe even 120-130 starts, that would make for some interesting theme leagues
1/21/2010 11:55 AM
The funny thing is that you could set one of those dudes as a reliever, have him come in every game and throw 5 pitches, and he'd be tired all year, despite a RL 900 IP/162G or whatever.

Any system that allows something like that to happen is f'n ridiculous... appearances shouldn't affect fatigue at all. We should be allowed to mete their RL IP however we see fit... that's the whole point of a "What If" game...
1/21/2010 12:03 PM
If appearance fatigue wasn't an issue in real life, Mike Marshall's record would have been shredded on multiple occasions.

The reason appearance fatigue was enacted was because it was too easy to draft a few 200-300 IP stud pitchers (e.g., 94-95 Maddux), set them to pitch in relief every game for relatively few pitches. They would often end up with 50% more IP than real life with no fatigue impact. The starting pitchers for these teams were often irrelevant because their offenses were so strong because there wasn't much $ spent on pitching.

This generally only worked in lower cap leagues (<= $100M) but it made a mockery of the sim. This was also often combined with an entire lineup of A+++ defenders who would also serve to reduce the pitch count required to get through games to absurdly low levels.

IMHO, there's a difference between "what if" Ruth faced Pedro Martinez in PNC Park ad what would happen if a simulation defied natural limits on pitchers' ability to make fully rested appearances.

That said, there should be a way for Clarkson to get his IP/162 because he is such a unique case. Or, maybe better, the sim shouldn't have any players available before 1893 when the mound was moved back to 60 feet 6 inches.
1/21/2010 12:08 PM
What is the upper bound for appearances?
1/21/2010 12:10 PM
i.e., fatigue-less appearances?
1/21/2010 2:51 PM
why not
1/21/2010 3:44 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By PennQuaker on 1/21/2010
The reason appearance fatigue was enacted was because it was too easy to draft a few 200-300 IP stud pitchers (e.g., 94-95 Maddux), set them to pitch in relief every game for relatively few pitches. They would often end up with 50% more IP than real life with no fatigue impact.
This should be innaccurate. If it is accurate then thats very very sad. Getting 300 innings out of a 200 inning player has nothing to do with appearances or appearance fatigue. They had a glitch in their standard excess innings fatigue.
If I buy a player with 700 innings. I want to get 770 innings, because thats fair. Not 1000 innings through some weird glitch, and not 600 innings because there is insane appearance fatigue. Just 770 dispersed over however many games I see fit.
Hopefully they'll address this soon.
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