I figure that at the very least, there should be a severe DEF rating reduction for the players in the WHA.

Agreed. SEVERE defensive rating reduction. SEVERE.

I have, on many occasions, tried to twist draft WHA rosters using NHL stats. You can't make a decent team because only a handful of successful NHL defensemen ever played in the WHA.

I've read an argument elsewhere on the Net that Tardif's '78 season - 65 goals, 89 assists - was probably the equivalent of a 100-point NHL season. So, while he was a talented player, he didn't just become Mario Lemieux.

As much as I loved watching WHA games growing up, there was no defence in the league.

Essentially, the only use for WHA players would be to add cheap scoring options to the database. Like the current Brian Sutters, Al Secords, Wendel Clarks etc. Or as chuck and aginor suggest, like the oldtimers. Used in low-cap leagues or open leagues they might be scoring options, but in higher cap leagues playing against NHL defencemen they should have next to no advantage.

Actually that's not unrealistic either, cause the WHA was a very high scoring league and defence was not exactly a priorty! The thought was goals = more fans, especially if you're just starting a league. So there really shouldn't be any forwards with high d-ratings...

I think it might be fun, just to have the option. I'd be a bit concerned though if it became commonplace to use the WHA stats in most leagues. It would just mess things up too much, with such high scoring numbers. Like most people in this thread, I think the WHA numbers are unrealistic in comparison to NHL numbers. It's almost like having a player's stats from junior to mix in with NHL stats, and you'd have guys that got 150 points that would never get that many against NHL competition.

I've never played WIS basketball, but are ABA stats included with the NBA stats?

Quote: Originally posted by SAKABAKBRG on 4/08/2010Can we get all of the NHL arenas added in as well?

SAK -- If you have a list of missing arenas and their locations, we'll be glad to add them!

Quote: Originally posted by wendeltroy on 4/09/2010I've never played WIS basketball, but are ABA stats included with the NBA stats?

Yes we, do, which is why there is interest in adding WHA to SLH.

The whole idea kind of scares me because you are comparing apples to oranges. The point that people make about inflated offense is certainly my big concern. You would have some guys come from the WHA and become "necessary" to win in open leagues. Especially if they do have a very low defensive rating. Right now, you have players like Clark, Verbeek, and some others that are almost givens because of their high amounts of goals and cheap prices due to low defense. This would certainly happen with a guy like Real Cloutier.

I just do not like the idea. There is a lot of confusion in the baseball sim because you have early era players, dead ball, 60s era, steroid era and the eras just don't compare. Well in hockey we already have different eras we don't need to also add different leagues.

If WHA is going to be added, you would certainly need a way to filter the guys out so they could be banned from certain leagues.

I am against it though. I can't imagine adding the XFL players to the football sim. Its just not the same thing.

Real Cloutier was certainly not as good as Hull, Lemieux, Gretzky, Mogilny, or Selanne yet he would suddenly seem to be if added to the sim.

If you are going to add the players you would have to normalize the stats somehow just as the baseball stats are normalized. Instead of a guy like Houle having 100 points you would have to see how the WHA average compares to the NHL average of the era and alter it. Maybe you only give him 75 points for his stats or something to that effect.

Quote: Originally posted by SAKABAKBRG on 4/08/2010http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1973.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1974.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1975.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1976.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1977.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1978.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/WHA_1979.html

Thanks! I'll download the CSVs and see what we can do to get them in.

slimebot -- We understand your concern. The thinking is that if we do get them imported, they we only be available in theme leagues as on option the founder must choose to allow.

would be amazing for progressives etc

Yep.. An option is a good idea for theme leagues.

Isn't that what we are doing now? Comparing Apples & Oranges?

The game the NHL played back in Malone's time is a FAR cry from the game of today! Could not pass the puck forward (like rugby), Goalie had to remain standing at all (or else a penalty) etc etc

Also, if you argue that even back then these were the best players etc etc. Sorry but there was a rival league based in the West (Vancouver Millionaires etc...). A fair number of very talented players went there... so Malone wasn't playing against the very best really...

Not to mentioned about 6 team NHL. For a long while, a penalty didn't end when a PP goal was scored. The team on the PP could score more than 1 time on a penalty. How many extra goals did Richard get from that? How many extra goals would have Gretz scored if the NHL in the 80s had the same rule.....

Comparing players from different eras is comparing apples and oranges. Could Malone score 44 goals in 22 games in the NHL of 09-10???

Aginor, that is my point though that we have many different eras represented, and because of that, we already have certain guys in the league who are must haves when you draft in an open league. You need to have them because their offensive stats are so skewed because of the eras they played in. At least it was NHL though.

Malone, Dye, Denneny they did play in an era when a few guys racked up ridiculous amounts of goals and hardly any assists. Then you have the 80s and early 90s players that benefited from rapid expansion of the league leading to a time when scoring was off the charts. There are some D men from the 70s and 90s that have huge numbers during times when scoring was down league-wide.

In the end though, its all NHL and even though the eras differ, they are all NHL players.

If this is going to happen, these guys can't be available to open leagues. Comparing eras is one thing but comparing leagues is a whole other ball game. Although many good players the NHL for the WHA, most did not. The good WHA players were playing against inferior opponents, thus inflating their stats. All other eras have the best competing against the best. (although you are correct about the early years but if you choose a guy like Malone you are automatically punished by the high PIM and low assists).

I am not against the WHA stats being available in some capacity, I just don't want them to be considered equal to NHL stats.

When we had the olympic leagues recently, it would have been really cool to have stats from the 70s KHL and Swedish league.

"All other eras have the best competing against the best"

Actually this is NOT the case... direct quote from Wikipedia:

The NHL's first quarter-century saw the league compete against two rival major leagues—thePacific Coast Hockey Association and Western Canada Hockey League—for players.....

So, in fact Joe, Babe, Cy etc were NOT competing against the best of best really...some of the really good players were out west. It wasn't untill these leagues folded with some players being sold to NHL teams in the mid 1920s could you really say this. So Joe Malone's infamous 44 goals in 22 wasn't against the very best cause they weren't all there in the NHL. Actually the years after WWI, it's fair to say the talent was pretty evenly divided among those 3 leagues.. guys wanted to play close to home and close to their real money making jobs/family. But since the money was out east and the NHL expansion into the U.S. this changed gradually. So by the mid 1920s practically all the talent was in the NHL.

I do think the overall talent level of the WHA was a little lower but the main difference was the style not the talent. WHA had a fair number of players from Europe. They played the fast wide open style... a contrast to the NHL (WHA did wish to offer a different product than the NHL). Therefore higher offensive numbers, no doubt some players thrived in that style that would not have thrived in the NHL style of that time.