Credit an Rbi ? I think so. - Page 6 - SimLeague Baseball

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its pretty simple to end this once and for all. ask a major league official score keeper or just look at the boxscores and find this situation.

I have an email to one of the yankees official score keepers even though I already know that an RBI is credited

1/25/2011 5:36 PM

Fregoe

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Posted by loudawg10 on 1/25/2011 4:27:00 PM (view original):
the DP/FC thing is not a you and me thing. No official scorer can assume that a DP would have been successfully completed if there is an error involved in the play...it is not allowed to weigh on his scoring decisions. All the scorer is allowed to look at is the play directly affected by the error (in this case the FC which has to happen before the throw to complete the double play; they are two seperate scoring functions).

but you are correct, it looks as though we are not going to agree. i dont think that either of us can more clearly state our opinions or evidence and it is pointless to say the same thing repeatedly expecting a different result.
In that case, if you havent seen the lefty 2b thread (and i am guessing you havent because i think its older than how long youve been on the site...its 80 pages well worth the read. the first few may have you laughing so hard you cry

www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx

i go read a page or two every once in a while just for fun

1/25/2011 5:38 PM

napolean

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Fregoe if your going to ask the Yankee scorer make sure you tell him it is the opposing team with the bases loaded...maybe even the Red Sox..;)

1/25/2011 7:31 PM

napolean

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Dego

	M.Brown enters the game to pitch.
	O.Vizquel grounds out to the pitcher.
	B.Roberts grounds a single to CF.
DP	B.Bonilla walks.
DP	P.Rose walks.
DP	G.Jefferies grounds to 1B. There's a play at the plate and the runner is safe. B.Roberts scores.
DP	L.Castillo boots a routine grounder and B.Roberts reaches on the error. B.Bonilla scores.
DP	R.Irvine grounds to SS. They get the force at 2B, but the batter beats the throw to 1B to avoid the DP. P.Rose scores.
	G.Carter fouls out to the C on the 1B side.

I hate to beat a dead horse but I thought this was interesting.
This happened to one of my teams called "Dego" in the 1/27AM game. As we can see the bases are loaded, no outs, the infield is at DP depth, ground ball to 1B and the first baseman elects to go home. The runner is safe, so RBI on FC. The very next batter hits a grounder to 2B which is booted. In the first case an RBI is recorded, but not in the second case on the scorecard. Anyway my point from the beginning of this discussion was simply that by not giving a fielder the option to throw home (via the error) no RBI should be awarded. Clearly the first baseman decided to exercise this option even though he was unsuccessful. The second baseman had no option to try for the runner at home, this is why I do not believe an RBI should be awarded in these instances.

1/28/2011 4:45 PM

napolean

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I'm kind of computer stupid so if anyone can explain to me how to post a link to this scorecard please site mail me some simple instructions and I'll be happy to do it.

1/28/2011 4:49 PM

inkdskn

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"The second baseman had no option to try for the runner at home, this is why I do not believe an RBI should be awarded in these instances."

The point we've been trying to stress is that the criteria you're using, quoted above, is not in the rule book, in any form. It may sound rude when I claim that you're "making it up," but.... you are making that up. The correct scoring on the play is FC, E4. The batter, by (a)(3), gets an RBI--the error prevented execution of the FC, and nothing more. Had the player not made an error, a FC would have been executed, but a run still would have scored, which is why an RBI is credited, by (a)(3). WIS will be (supposedly) changing it to correctly credit an RBI in the next update.

1/28/2011 5:24 PM (edited)

inkdskn

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The only way not to give an RBI is if a force out at home was a realistic possible outcome of the play. Was it? Judging from the dude being at DP depth, no--hence an RBI.

You are effectively refusing to credit an RBI in an instance where the batter would have gotten an RBI had the ball been fielded cleanly, at least from a scoring perspective. The reason for that is because the scorer cannot assume a DP, and is forced to record the error as preventing the successful execution of a FC. That is not an "assumption;" that is the ruling if the play. The only "judgment" the scorer uses is to decide whether a force at home was a plausible outcome of the play.

1/28/2011 5:24 PM

inkdskn

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... or to state it another way:

"The second baseman had no option to try for the runner at home,..."

Clearly, that is a true statement.

But, under the rule book, you cannot use that to state this:

"...this is why I do not believe an RBI should be awarded in these instances."

Does that make sense?

1/28/2011 5:27 PM

napolean

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The second baseman did not have the option from preventing the runner to score (via the error). If the ball was fielded cleanly the second baseman could have instigated a "play at the plate", as the first baseman did. Perhaps he gets the guy perhaps he doesn't, but he does negate the "ordinarily would score" term of the rule. I interpret "ordinarily would score" to mean it would be next to impossible to prevent the run.

"The only "judgment" the scorer uses is to decide whether a force at home was a plausible outcome of the play."

I believe it to be a stretch for the scorer to need to make a "judgment" call here as to whether or not the run would score, and not make a "judgment" call concerning the viability of a DP, or a FC. The error simply takes the "judgment" out of the scorers hands because he cannot read the players mind as to where he was going to go with the ball if fielded cleanly. The first baseman went home, it might have been surprising or it might not, but there was a sequence of play for all to see, and no "judgment" necessary for the scorer. Therefore if the second baseman had fielded the ball cleanly, and gone home with it he may have nailed the runner or not, but a throw coming to the plate from the infield does not fall into the category of "ordinarily would score" I don't think.

1/28/2011 7:17 PM

inkdskn

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"Judgment" is needed to determine if "the runner ordinarily would score."

"If the ball was fielded cleanly the second baseman could have instigated a "play at the plate", as the first baseman did. Perhaps he gets the guy perhaps he doesn't,..."

That is where judgment is used. There is never a clear cut, undeniable case where the "runner would ordinarily score;" judgment is always needed to determine that, be it on a deep fly ball that's dropped, or on an error on a ground ball hit to a guy playing at DP depth.

Any mention of a DP is irrelevant--the scorer cannot, under any circumstance, assume a DP.

"The second baseman did not have the option from preventing the runner to score (via the error)."

Again, that is a true statement... but read the rules. You cannot use that to determine if an RBI is awarded. Period. If you want to argue that should not be the case, you are free to do so. However, you arguing that it prevents the scorer from crediting an RBI, which under the rules, you cannot do.

1/28/2011 7:47 PM

inkdskn

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And again, there is no "judgment" or "assumption" about a FC--the scoring of the play is FC, E4, regardless if the run scores or doesn't score, and regardless whether there is an RBI credited or not.

The outcome of the play is FC, E4, and judgment is used to determine if the "runner ordinarily score," which determines if an RBI is credited.

You are using your own criteria to determine if an RBI is credited, namely:

"The second baseman had no option to try for the runner at home, this is why I do not believe an RBI should be awarded in these instances."

Again, look at the rules: that is not criteria you are allowed to use to see if an RBI is credited. You may not agree with the rules, which is your choice, but you are obligated to use them to determine if an RBI is awarded. If you want to argue that the rule sucks, knock yourself out--some people may agree with you. However, you cannot use your own criteria to see if an RBI is awarded, which is what you are doing.

1/28/2011 7:57 PM

napolean

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I see what you're saying. My only point was that on the previous play in this game the first baseman went for the force at the plate. Had he booted it he could not do so.
The second baseman could not go to the plate because he booted the ball, had he not he may have done so. That's it for me, nothing more to add.
Just as a sidebar, I too played HS and college ball as a SS not 2B, many years I'm sure before loudawg10, and I can say with absolute certainty that I could have thrown a runner out at the plate more than once from DP depth. I never tried because the play was to go for two. But for my money there is nothing more exciting than a play at the plate, now I wish I had tried even though I would have been screamed at and probably benched. Too scared to disobey the coachs back then, I admit it I had no guts. That's it, over and out on this topic.

1/28/2011 10:10 PM

teaparty

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Posted by ballhawknet on 1/4/2011 4:23:00 PM (view original):
Bases loaded no one out.

Infield at double play depth

Ground ball to second ... fielder boots it for an error .

Since you cant assume a double play ... an rbi is credited .Seems like a basic ruling. I was told no rbi.

If the infield was in or regular depth I guess you could say the fielder could/would throw home.

But at double play depth this seems like an easy ruling.

what do you think ?

Let's look at this a little differently.

The basic assumption has been that the infielder would've thrown to second. If so, credit the rbi. Sounds right.

But what if we start by assuming the no rbi call is correct?

That would mean that the fielder had a play at the plate, but muffed it. So hard smash to 2B, he turns to gun it home, ball drops transfering from glove to throwing hand. FC E4 no rbi.

It would make sense for WIS to credit the rbi usually, but also not credit it occasionally, to allow for both scenarios.

2/4/2011 11:54 AM (edited)

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