Another Tragedy Caused by an Armed Citizen Topic

babypop985
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2011 9:04:00 PM (view original):
You do realize that the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated, right?    And, those who commit pre-meditated murders do know that it's illegal, right?

So, if you agree with these two simple facts, how many murders do you think aren't committed because it's illegal?
You are right, Mike. The vast majority of murders are not premeditated; they are an act of passion. Seeing as how they are premeditated and the person did not plan to kill the vicitm, are you more likely to kill someone in the spur of the moment with a gun shot or a fist-fight, broken bottle or knife? I seem to think that if people had to get involved in close combat with the person they are murdering, they might come to their senses and not kill someone in the heat of the moment.
1/25/2011 10:41 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2011 9:43:00 PM (view original):
Anyhow, I could buy that guns make murder easier but less murders aren't committed because it's illegal.   I doubt anyone has said "Damn, if I shoot that dude one more time, he might die.  And then I'll be in all kinds of trouble!!!"

But back to easier murders.   If we had to commit all our murders by beatings, fat America would get too winded to finish the job.
Since you missed it.
1/25/2011 10:42 AM
MikeT23
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Of course, what you're yammering about isn't what I disputed.

I disputed that there were less murders because they are illegal.    See the post you quoted for details.
1/25/2011 10:43 AM
babypop985
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I think there are less murders because they are illigal. Its tough to prove though as you'd need a sample population of people where murder was legal.  I'd say the reason premediated murder is far more rare is related to the consequences of committing the crime. Robbery is illigal and I'm sure it would happen more often if there wasn't a consequence to stealing.
1/25/2011 10:56 AM
MikeT23
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I don't think you can compare stealing a toothbrush to taking a life.    All crimes are not created equal.
1/25/2011 11:03 AM
MikeT23
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In short, ask the average American if they would steal a sandwich if they were starving.   Then ask them if they would kill the deli worker in order to steal the same sandwich because they were starving.  I think you know the answers to both questions.
1/25/2011 11:09 AM
deathinahole
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What kind of sandwich is it?
Is it loaded with all the fixin's, or PB&J?

Really, not enough info.
1/25/2011 11:21 AM
deathinahole
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And in all seriousness....gun control works. But when it's inbred into your culture as a constitutional right, good luck implementing it.
1/25/2011 11:22 AM
MikeT23
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Gun "control" will never work.  Much like the "war of drugs" is a miserable failure.  Zero tolerance is the only way to make either/both work.   But I bet none of the dope-smoking "We gotta take guns away from the citizens!!!" freaks is willing to do time for firing up a bowl. 

Murder per capita:   http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

No idea where the line of strict, lax and no gun control lines are but the US has 3 times the murder rate than Canada/UK.

1/25/2011 11:37 AM
deathinahole
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Depends how you mean "control".

In my eyes, societal acceptance/non-acceptance has a lot to do with it. Laws help, but as you sort of said earlier, someone isn't going to say "no, I can buy that Glock from you. It's illegal in this country."

From this viewpoint, you can "feel" the difference in attitude towards guns. It's hard to describe, but it's a fundimental attitude difference. Guns as a right is completely foreign. Sure, the farmers scream whenever there's a change in law, but it's more of a "that's damn inconvenient to someone that uses it to shoot predators" over "that violates my right".

It would take years...I dare say decades to shift attitudes in the States *if* there was even a willingness to do so.
1/25/2011 11:46 AM
MikeT23
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Sure.  Much of it is "attitude".   I'm not going to walk around packing a .45 but, if I needed to do some murdering, I could get one.   Gun laws wouldn't matter.

Guns make is easier to kill someone but, if you're incapable of murder, you can have a friggin' armory and be harmless whereas someone capable and willing to commit murder will just flatten you with a car. 

1/25/2011 11:54 AM
deathinahole
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That was tragically relevant in Toronto a couple of weeks ago. First police officer killed in the line of duty in 8 years done in by someone that snapped behind the wheel of a stolen snowplow.

So yea.
1/25/2011 12:16 PM
rlahann
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Posted by swamphawk22 on 1/25/2011 4:09:00 AM (view original):
I am well aware of Mike23's negative depictions of overweight people from the HBD forums.

The point is that gun control doesnt work. The cities with strong gun control are the most violent and the Counties with right to carry laws are the safest.

We need to control crime and not guns!
Find me the stats on the countries/right to carry laws?
1/25/2011 12:49 PM
vandydave
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2011 9:04:00 PM (view original):
You do realize that the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated, right?    And, those who commit pre-meditated murders do know that it's illegal, right?

So, if you agree with these two simple facts, how many murders do you think aren't committed because it's illegal?
so if murders are crimes of emotion/passion, then it would seem that the variable is whether the perpetrator has access to weapons of deadly force in that moment...
1/25/2011 1:18 PM
vandydave
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Posted by swamphawk22 on 1/25/2011 4:09:00 AM (view original):
I am well aware of Mike23's negative depictions of overweight people from the HBD forums.

The point is that gun control doesnt work. The cities with strong gun control are the most violent and the Counties with right to carry laws are the safest.

We need to control crime and not guns!
ugh, a cities/counties comparison? might have just been easier to say that places with more people have more crime. or you could take the race angle to that comment as well...
1/25/2011 1:20 PM
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