Another Tragedy Caused by an Armed Citizen Topic

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 10:43:00 AM (view original):
Of course, what you're yammering about isn't what I disputed.

I disputed that there were less murders because they are illegal.    See the post you quoted for details.
if murder was legal i can assure you the murder rate would rise...
1/25/2011 1:21 PM
VD has a list.
1/25/2011 1:26 PM
Firearms death rate per 100000....Top twenty states (Kaiser Foundation)
 
Louisiana 20.2
Mississippi 18.5
Alaska 17.8
Alabama 17.5
Nevada 16.3
Arkansas 15.2
Arizona 15.1
Wyoming 15.0
New Mexico 15.0
Tennessee 14.8
West Virginia 14.2
Kentucky 14.2
Montana 13.7
South Carolina 13.3
Oklahoma 13.2
Georgia 13.2
Missouri 12.8
Idaho 12.7
North Carolina 12.3
Florida 12.2


Any of those states strike you as having strict gun control laws?
1/25/2011 1:29 PM
Wanna guess what the twenty states with the fewest firearms death rates per 100000 look like?
1/25/2011 1:33 PM
Countries listed by gun ownership by capita...
Country Guns per 100
residents (2007)
Rank
(2007)
Comments
 United States 88.8 1  
 Yemen 54.8 2  
 Switzerland 45.7 3  
 Finland 45.3 4 2008: 32.0[5]
 Serbia 37.8 5  
 Cyprus 36.4 6  
 Saudi Arabia 25.0 7  
 Iraq 34.2 8  
 Uruguay 31.8 9  
 Sweden 31.6 10
 

Countries listed by firearm-related death rate....
Country Total firearm-related death rate Homicides Suicides Unintentional deaths Year Sources and notes
 South Africa 74.57 74.57 NA NA 2000 UNODC 2000[1]
 Colombia 51.77 51.77 NA NA 2000 UNODC 2000[1]
 Thailand 33 33 NA NA 2002 UNODC 2002[2]
 Guatemala 18.05 18.05 NA NA 2000 UNODC 2000[1]
 Brazil 14.15 10.58 0.73 0.28 1993 Krug 1998[3]
 Estonia 12.74 8.07 3.13 0.93 1994 Krug 1998[3]
 Mexico 12.07 9.88 0.91 1.27 1994 Krug 1998[3]
 United States 10.2[4] 15.22[3] 7.07[3] 7.35[3] 0.59[3] 2004/1993 Krug 1998[3] [4] Kaiser 2004 [4]
 Philippines 9.46 9.46 NA NA 2002 UNODC 2002[2]
 Argentina 9.19 2.11 3.05 0.32 1994 Krug 1998[3]
1/25/2011 1:37 PM
Posted by vandydave on 1/25/2011 1:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2011 9:04:00 PM (view original):
You do realize that the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated, right?    And, those who commit pre-meditated murders do know that it's illegal, right?

So, if you agree with these two simple facts, how many murders do you think aren't committed because it's illegal?
so if murders are crimes of emotion/passion, then it would seem that the variable is whether the perpetrator has access to weapons of deadly force in that moment...
Not my argument.   I was simply pointing out that laws against murder do not deter murder.
1/25/2011 1:58 PM
Posted by vandydave on 1/25/2011 1:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 10:43:00 AM (view original):
Of course, what you're yammering about isn't what I disputed.

I disputed that there were less murders because they are illegal.    See the post you quoted for details.
if murder was legal i can assure you the murder rate would rise...
No you can't assure me of any such thing.    If you're capable of murder, you've already done it or the right circumstance hasn't presented itself.   Please see my steal a sandwich vs. kill the clerk for a sandwich analogy.
1/25/2011 2:01 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by vandydave on 1/25/2011 1:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2011 9:04:00 PM (view original):
You do realize that the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated, right?    And, those who commit pre-meditated murders do know that it's illegal, right?

So, if you agree with these two simple facts, how many murders do you think aren't committed because it's illegal?
so if murders are crimes of emotion/passion, then it would seem that the variable is whether the perpetrator has access to weapons of deadly force in that moment...
Not my argument.   I was simply pointing out that laws against murder do not deter murder.
I don't think you have much of a case. Even if this is true of 95% of the population, do you really want the other 5% walking around knowing they can't be prosecuted?


Let's try looking at this a different way. Suppose everyone you have ever spoken to on the forums is given a gun and carte blanche to shoot you. Are you that confident that you're going to survive?
1/25/2011 2:24 PM
If 5% of the population is capable of murder, a law isn't going to stop them from doing it.   Again, all crimes aren't created equally.

Yep.  I've had guns pointed at me before, by convicted criminals, and no one has had the balls to pull the trigger.   You know why?  Killing someone isn't as simple as point and squeeze.  
1/25/2011 2:29 PM
I would guess that much more than 5% is capable of murder. Arguably, 100% may be capable, under the right circumstances. The 5% was just a (ridiculously low, IMO) figure for people who are being held back by legal consequences. And that doesn't mean they'd suddenly start killing everyone they met. It may just mean they'd kill one or two people whom they find dispicable. And you're right, it isn't as simple as point and squeeze. Part of what makes it not so simple are the consequences.


Let's go back to my example. Suppose 500 people you've spoken in the forums are given guns and license to kill you. Are you confident you'll survive? Remember, if 499 don't shoot you, you still lose.
1/25/2011 2:43 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 2:29:00 PM (view original):
If 5% of the population is capable of murder, a law isn't going to stop them from doing it.   Again, all crimes aren't created equally.

Yep.  I've had guns pointed at me before, by convicted criminals, and no one has had the balls to pull the trigger.   You know why?  Killing someone isn't as simple as point and squeeze.  
But, of course, none of us would have to pull the trigger.  If murder were legal, the assassin/hitman industry would flourish.  Most of congress would be shot by now, making a run for political office akin to suicide.  Divorce rates would drop to virtually nil, because why pay her half or let her have custody when you can hire Vinnie to off her?  Don't wanna deal with the competing business across the street?  That can be fixed.  IRS stopping by for an audit?  Not any more.  There are millions of situations where hiring an assassin would make one's life much easier if murder were legal.  It would be open season on homosexuals for the religious right as they, of course, would find permission to do so in the Bible.  

The very notion that murder rates would not go up if it were legal is so absurd, that I have to believe that MikeT23 is an alias of Swamphawk22.
1/25/2011 2:49 PM
Posted by genghisxcon on 1/25/2011 2:43:00 PM (view original):
I would guess that much more than 5% is capable of murder. Arguably, 100% may be capable, under the right circumstances. The 5% was just a (ridiculously low, IMO) figure for people who are being held back by legal consequences. And that doesn't mean they'd suddenly start killing everyone they met. It may just mean they'd kill one or two people whom they find dispicable. And you're right, it isn't as simple as point and squeeze. Part of what makes it not so simple are the consequences.


Let's go back to my example. Suppose 500 people you've spoken in the forums are given guns and license to kill you. Are you confident you'll survive? Remember, if 499 don't shoot you, you still lose.
I think it's insane to believe that even 5% of the adult population could murder someone under any circumstance beyond self-defense(which, as you know, is NOT murder).  I think you need to look up the meaning of "murder".   Laws don't stop it.


If you're asking me if there's a hardened criminal capable of murder amongst us, I guess there is that possibility.   I'd bet against it.   
1/25/2011 2:57 PM
Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 2:29:00 PM (view original):
If 5% of the population is capable of murder, a law isn't going to stop them from doing it.   Again, all crimes aren't created equally.

Yep.  I've had guns pointed at me before, by convicted criminals, and no one has had the balls to pull the trigger.   You know why?  Killing someone isn't as simple as point and squeeze.  
But, of course, none of us would have to pull the trigger.  If murder were legal, the assassin/hitman industry would flourish.  Most of congress would be shot by now, making a run for political office akin to suicide.  Divorce rates would drop to virtually nil, because why pay her half or let her have custody when you can hire Vinnie to off her?  Don't wanna deal with the competing business across the street?  That can be fixed.  IRS stopping by for an audit?  Not any more.  There are millions of situations where hiring an assassin would make one's life much easier if murder were legal.  It would be open season on homosexuals for the religious right as they, of course, would find permission to do so in the Bible.  

The very notion that murder rates would not go up if it were legal is so absurd, that I have to believe that MikeT23 is an alias of Swamphawk22.
This is quite possibly the dumbest argument I've seen.  Wouldn't it stand to reason that everyone would hit a "hitman" to kill the "hitman" that's been hired to kill them?    If so, wouldn't we eventually only have one remaining "hitman"?   Or, quite possibly, only one living human left on earth?   I mean, if we're going full-on stupid, let's go all the way.

My argument, way back when, was that laws do not prohibit murderers from committing murder.    They either do it as a crime of passion or pre-meditated.  Either way, they know it's against the law and they do it anyway.   Joe Schmoe on the street isn't walking around saying "Man, if murder wasn't illegal, I'd be killing some people!!!!"   That's just some fantasy that soft America has invented to make themselves feel tough.
1/25/2011 3:03 PM
This is quite possibly the dumbest argument I've seen.  Wouldn't it stand to reason that everyone would hit a "hitman" to kill the "hitman" that's been hired to kill them?    If so, wouldn't we eventually only have one remaining "hitman"?   Or, quite possibly, only one living human left on earth?   I mean, if we're going full-on stupid, let's go all the way. 

Now I am absolutely convinced that this is a Swamphawk alias.
1/25/2011 3:06 PM
So, despite your rambling post about hitmen killing every politician, spouse and business owner, you're not prepared to go full-on stupid?   That seems odd.  
1/25/2011 3:10 PM
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Another Tragedy Caused by an Armed Citizen Topic

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