Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 3:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by genghisxcon on 1/25/2011 3:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 2:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by genghisxcon on 1/25/2011 2:43:00 PM (view original):
I would guess that much more than 5% is capable of murder. Arguably, 100% may be capable, under the right circumstances. The 5% was just a (ridiculously low, IMO) figure for people who are being held back by legal consequences. And that doesn't mean they'd suddenly start killing everyone they met. It may just mean they'd kill one or two people whom they find dispicable. And you're right, it isn't as simple as point and squeeze. Part of what makes it not so simple are the consequences.


Let's go back to my example. Suppose 500 people you've spoken in the forums are given guns and license to kill you. Are you confident you'll survive? Remember, if 499 don't shoot you, you still lose.

I think it's insane to believe that even 5% of the adult population could murder someone under any circumstance beyond self-defense(which, as you know, is NOT murder).  I think you need to look up the meaning of "murder".   Laws don't stop it.


If you're asking me if there's a hardened criminal capable of murder amongst us, I guess there is that possibility.   I'd bet against it.   

Suppose your new neighbor is a rapist who got off on a technicality. Suppose he's been checking out your 15-year-old daughter. I'm guessing quite a few people would have no problem killing him, especially if they know they wouldn't be punished.

Back to our example. I am not asking you if there is a hardened criminal amonst us. I'm asking if you are sure that there is no one who is willing to get rid of you if there are no consequences.

The potential of punishment would have no effect if you thought your new neighbor was going to rape your daughter.    The fact that he hadn't would deter anyone who is incapable of murder. 

I'd bet that there is no one on this board capable of MURDER. 

Or I might just hire a bodyguard, instead. It would be more expensive, but I wouldn't have to worry about going to prison. Of course, if prison isn't a concern, I might just go the qucker, cheaper route.

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Countries listed by gun ownership by capita...

Country	Guns per 100 residents (2007)	Rank (2007)	Comments
United States	88.8	1
Yemen	54.8	2
Switzerland	45.7	3
Finland	45.3	4	2008: 32.0[5]
Serbia	37.8	5
Cyprus	36.4	6
Saudi Arabia	25.0	7
Iraq	34.2	8
Uruguay	31.8	9
Sweden	31.6	10

Countries listed by firearm-related death rate....

Country	Total firearm-related death rate	Homicides	Suicides	Unintentional deaths	Year	Sources and notes
South Africa	74.57	74.57	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[1]
Colombia	51.77	51.77	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[1]
Thailand	33	33	NA	NA	2002	UNODC 2002[2]
Guatemala	18.05	18.05	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[1]
Brazil	14.15	10.58	0.73	0.28	1993	Krug 1998[3]
Estonia	12.74	8.07	3.13	0.93	1994	Krug 1998[3]
Mexico	12.07	9.88	0.91	1.27	1994	Krug 1998[3]
United States	10.2[4] 15.22[3]	7.07[3]	7.35[3]	0.59[3]	2004/1993	Krug 1998[3] [4] Kaiser 2004 [4]
Philippines	9.46	9.46	NA	NA	2002	UNODC 2002[2]
Argentina	9.19	2.11	3.05	0.32	1994	Krug 1998[3]

ZOMG!!!!!!1!!!!!111  The two lists are nearly identical!!!1111!!

Posted by genghisxcon on 1/25/2011 3:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 3:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by genghisxcon on 1/25/2011 3:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 2:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by genghisxcon on 1/25/2011 2:43:00 PM (view original):
I would guess that much more than 5% is capable of murder. Arguably, 100% may be capable, under the right circumstances. The 5% was just a (ridiculously low, IMO) figure for people who are being held back by legal consequences. And that doesn't mean they'd suddenly start killing everyone they met. It may just mean they'd kill one or two people whom they find dispicable. And you're right, it isn't as simple as point and squeeze. Part of what makes it not so simple are the consequences.


Let's go back to my example. Suppose 500 people you've spoken in the forums are given guns and license to kill you. Are you confident you'll survive? Remember, if 499 don't shoot you, you still lose.

I think it's insane to believe that even 5% of the adult population could murder someone under any circumstance beyond self-defense(which, as you know, is NOT murder).  I think you need to look up the meaning of "murder".   Laws don't stop it.


If you're asking me if there's a hardened criminal capable of murder amongst us, I guess there is that possibility.   I'd bet against it.   

Suppose your new neighbor is a rapist who got off on a technicality. Suppose he's been checking out your 15-year-old daughter. I'm guessing quite a few people would have no problem killing him, especially if they know they wouldn't be punished.

Back to our example. I am not asking you if there is a hardened criminal amonst us. I'm asking if you are sure that there is no one who is willing to get rid of you if there are no consequences.

The potential of punishment would have no effect if you thought your new neighbor was going to rape your daughter.    The fact that he hadn't would deter anyone who is incapable of murder. 

I'd bet that there is no one on this board capable of MURDER. 

Or I might just hire a bodyguard, instead. It would be more expensive, but I wouldn't have to worry about going to prison. Of course, if prison isn't a concern, I might just go the qucker, cheaper route.

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:29:00 PM (view original):

ZOMG!!!!!!1!!!!!111  The two lists are nearly identical!!!1111!!

Had that been the point I was trying to make, you would've had me.

Posted by antonsirius on 1/25/2011 3:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:29:00 PM (view original):

ZOMG!!!!!!1!!!!!111  The two lists are nearly identical!!!1111!!

Had that been the point I was trying to make, you would've had me.

I think there needs to be a Congressional investigation into how we let the Estonians get ahead of us.

I mean Mexico sure, what with all the drug trade killings and beheadings and whatnot, but Estonia?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 3:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Are you now saying that you didn't state that people would hire hitmen to kill virtually every politician, disagreeable spouse and competing businessman? 

There you go!  You have it about half right.

OH BOY!!! Now sexual predators are on your new hit list!!!

Who, exactly, gets to live in your world?  

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 3:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Are you now saying that you didn't state that people would hire hitmen to kill virtually every politician, disagreeable spouse and competing businessman? 

There you go!  You have it about half right.

OH BOY!!! Now sexual predators are on your new hit list!!!

Who, exactly, gets to live in your world?  

Seriously, if it were legal to kill anyone, do you honestly believe that....

- some self-described, "good intentioned" people wouldn't kill some guy in the neighborhood on that list instead of taking a chance that he might come after their kid?

- more homosexuals wouldn't be killed in the name of God?

- more politicians on both side of the isle wouldn't be assassinated because some Glenn Beck-like nut job believed their politics were too extreme for America?

Just those three....answer them honestly.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 4:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 3:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Are you now saying that you didn't state that people would hire hitmen to kill virtually every politician, disagreeable spouse and competing businessman? 

There you go!  You have it about half right.

OH BOY!!! Now sexual predators are on your new hit list!!!

Who, exactly, gets to live in your world?  

Seriously, if it were legal to kill anyone, do you honestly believe that....

- some self-described, "good intentioned" people wouldn't kill some guy in the neighborhood on that list instead of taking a chance that he might come after their kid?

- more homosexuals wouldn't be killed in the name of God?

- more politicians on both side of the isle wouldn't be assassinated because some Glenn Beck-like nut job believed their politics were too extreme for America?

Just those three....answer them honestly.

Seriously, do you believe EVERYONE is capable of MURDER?

Because they aren't.    If you don't believe me, just slap a drink out of someone's hand at McDonald's on your break.   There's a really good chance you won't even get punched.

Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 1:29:00 PM (view original):
Firearms death rate per 100000....Top twenty states (Kaiser Foundation)

 

Louisiana	20.2
Mississippi	18.5
Alaska	17.8
Alabama	17.5
Nevada	16.3
Arkansas	15.2
Arizona	15.1
Wyoming	15.0
New Mexico	15.0
Tennessee	14.8
West Virginia	14.2
Kentucky	14.2
Montana	13.7
South Carolina	13.3
Oklahoma	13.2
Georgia	13.2
Missouri	12.8
Idaho	12.7
North Carolina	12.3
Florida	12.2

Any of those states strike you as having strict gun control laws?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 1/25/2011 1:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 10:43:00 AM (view original):
Of course, what you're yammering about isn't what I disputed.

I disputed that there were less murders because they are illegal.    See the post you quoted for details.

if murder was legal i can assure you the murder rate would rise...

No you can't assure me of any such thing.    If you're capable of murder, you've already done it or the right circumstance hasn't presented itself.   Please see my steal a sandwich vs. kill the clerk for a sandwich analogy.

no, you are working off the assumption that people hold some sort of internal belief system against murdering others, which simply cant be assumed since that system of beliefs has only evolved in a society that negatively sanctions murder.