If Blyleven, why not Pettitte ? Topic

This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
Show
jfranco77
Posts: 4315 (0)
Hall of Famer
1258 1
Hall of Famer
I would put Andy ahead of Jack Morris. But I think he goes behind Mussina.

good article here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9854

AndyP: 3050 IP,  240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs

[Really, Blyleven/Mussina is a great comp. Mussina is absolutely the new Blyleven.]
2/4/2011 9:12 AM
Bilfert
Posts: 2223 (0)
Hall of Famer
241
Prospect
Posted by truemen on 2/4/2011 9:05:00 AM (view original):
Heck they are letting anybody into the HOF these days.
Nearly 18,000 men have played in the MLB and about 200 are in.  Let's not say that Bert Blyleven is just "anybody."
2/4/2011 3:31 PM
Bilfert
Posts: 2223 (0)
Hall of Famer
241
Prospect
Posted by jfranco77 on 2/4/2011 9:12:00 AM (view original):
I would put Andy ahead of Jack Morris. But I think he goes behind Mussina.

good article here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9854

AndyP: 3050 IP,  240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs

[Really, Blyleven/Mussina is a great comp. Mussina is absolutely the new Blyleven.]
Players and Managers alike say it is about winning Championships.  Why aren't Andy's accomplishments in the Post Season and World Series more important?  I wonder how he stacks up with Whitey Ford.
2/4/2011 3:33 PM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
Show
Bilfert
Posts: 2223 (0)
Hall of Famer
241
Prospect
AndyP: 3050 IP,  240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs
Whitey: 3170.1IP, 236-108, 133 ERA+, 55.3 WAR, 10-8, 2.71 in playoffs 6 WS rings (5 losses).

2/4/2011 3:39 PM
Trentonjoe
Posts: 10963 (0)
Hall of Famer
390 589 54 1
Hall of Famer

I think Mussina was a far superior pitcher to Petitte.

Petitte only finished in the top 10 for Cy Young Voting 5 times in his career.   Mussina did it 9 times.   

Plus, if you look at the #'s Bilfert posted, it's hard to argue that they are comparable since Mussina's are way better in everything but playoff wins. 
 

2/4/2011 3:55 PM
jfranco77
Posts: 4315 (0)
Hall of Famer
1258 1
Hall of Famer
And Moose has a better playoff ERA than Pettitte. But his teams weren't nearly as good and so the record doesn't reflect how effective he was.

Blyleven clearly has a ton more innings than Mussina but otherwise they are pretty similar. And Moose ranked pretty highly in IP/162 for his era.

Moose: 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs, 7.1 K/9, 2.0 BB/9
Blyleven: 118 ERA+, 90.1 WAR, 5-1, 247 in the playoffs, 6.7 K/9, 2.4 BB/9
2/4/2011 4:28 PM
Trentonjoe
Posts: 10963 (0)
Hall of Famer
390 589 54 1
Hall of Famer
Is Blyleven's WAR higher because he threw more innings?   Is WAR "normalized" (I don't know if that is the right word).
2/4/2011 4:30 PM
knutson
Posts: 14 (0)
Hall of Famer
110 70 4
Prospect
Did you forget about "Table for one" : 128ERA+69.7WAR, 11-2, 2.23 post season. Plus 3,116 SO in 3,261 IP.
2/4/2011 4:48 PM
llamanunts
Posts: 1498 (0)
Hall of Famer
29 95
Hall of Famer
Blyleven's WAR is higher because he threw more innings, yes.  He put his work into a lot of games.  WAR is normalized, yes.  It's Wins Above Replacement .  Replacement level is figured based on league context, which works to normalize it across eras.

Should Andy Pettitte be in the Hall?

...is a different question from:

Who was better - Pettitte or Blyleven?

To address the latter: It's not close.  Blyleven was a better pitcher at his peak, and a MUCH better pitcher for his career, than Pettitte was.  Andy had a lot more postseason opportunities and was mostly good in them.  He was on a number of championship teams.  In the opportunities Blyleven had in the postseason - which was harder to get into then than it is now - he performed better than Pettitte did.

Look, Bert's top-10 all-time in shutouts and strikeouts.  I mean... damn.  Yknow?

Now, is Pettitte a HOF'er?  I dunno yet.  He wasn't any worse than Morris.

(Yankees fan, btw.)


2/4/2011 8:24 PM
pinotfan
Posts: 1828 (0)
Hall of Famer
461 1
Hall of Famer
And, for those of us who saw him, NOBODY had a better curve than Blyleven.  Not saying  that's HOF credential, but OMG.
2/4/2011 8:34 PM
Trentonjoe
Posts: 10963 (0)
Hall of Famer
390 589 54 1
Hall of Famer
Posted by knutson on 2/4/2011 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Did you forget about "Table for one" : 128ERA+69.7WAR, 11-2, 2.23 post season. Plus 3,116 SO in 3,261 IP.
I wonder if Schilling was on steroids....there is no way to know but his best seasons were 1997-04.   He was pretty good before then but his k/9 SHOT up around then.
2/4/2011 8:46 PM
quasimango
Posts: 19 (0)
Veteran
10 20
Prospect
Posted by Bilfert on 2/4/2011 3:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jfranco77 on 2/4/2011 9:12:00 AM (view original):
I would put Andy ahead of Jack Morris. But I think he goes behind Mussina.

good article here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9854

AndyP: 3050 IP,  240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs

[Really, Blyleven/Mussina is a great comp. Mussina is absolutely the new Blyleven.]
Players and Managers alike say it is about winning Championships.  Why aren't Andy's accomplishments in the Post Season and World Series more important?  I wonder how he stacks up with Whitey Ford.
Whitey Ford's World Series record was 10-8, 2.71 ERA.  Pettitte's is 5-4, 4.06 ERA.

The reason he has so many Championship rings is because he was a long-serving Yankee. Just look at this list: www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_most_rings.shtml .

Not trying to denigrate him, he was a great pitcher, but there are a lot of pitchers more deserving of the HOF.

2/5/2011 6:33 AM (edited)
Bilfert
Posts: 2223 (0)
Hall of Famer
241
Prospect
AndyP: 3050 IP, 240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs, 5 RIngs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs
Whitey: 3170.1IP, 236-108, 133 ERA+, 55.3 WAR, 10-8, 2.71 in playoffs 6 WS rings (5 losses)
Pedro Martinez: 2827.1 IP, 219-100, 154 ERA+, 75.9 WAR, 6-4 3.46 in Playoffs, 0 Rings
Catfish Hunter: 3449.1 IP 224-166, 105 ERA+, 32.5 WAR, 9-6 3.26 in Playoff, 5 Rings ***HALL OF FAME***
2/5/2011 1:02 PM
123456 Next ▸
If Blyleven, why not Pettitte ? Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.