Posted by quasimango on 2/5/2011 6:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Bilfert on 2/4/2011 3:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jfranco77 on 2/4/2011 9:12:00 AM (view original):
I would put Andy ahead of Jack Morris. But I think he goes behind Mussina.

good article here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9854

AndyP: 3050 IP,  240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs

[Really, Blyleven/Mussina is a great comp. Mussina is absolutely the new Blyleven.]

Players and Managers alike say it is about winning Championships.  Why aren't Andy's accomplishments in the Post Season and World Series more important?  I wonder how he stacks up with Whitey Ford.

Whitey Ford's World Series record was 10-8, 2.71 ERA.  Pettitte's is 5-4, 4.06 ERA.

The reason he has so many Championship rings is because he was a long-serving Yankee. Just look at this list: www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_most_rings.shtml .

Not trying to denigrate him, he was a great pitcher, but there are a lot of pitchers more deserving of the HOF.

Are you talking about Ford or Pettitte? There are a few facts about Whitey that stick out. One is that he has the highest winning percentage (.690) in modern history. Secondly, Casey Stengel often help Ford back to skipping his turn to pitch against the better teams. I think that speaks volumes about his skill.

Posted by Bilfert on 2/5/2011 1:04:00 PM (view original):
AndyP: 3050 IP, 240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs, 5 RIngs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs
Whitey: 3170.1IP, 236-108, 133 ERA+, 55.3 WAR, 10-8, 2.71 in playoffs 6 WS rings (5 losses)
Pedro Martinez: 2827.1 IP, 219-100, 154 ERA+, 75.9 WAR, 6-4 3.46 in Playoffs, 0 Rings
Catfish Hunter: 3449.1 IP 224-166, 105 ERA+, 32.5 WAR, 9-6 3.26 in Playoff, 5 Rings ***HALL OF FAME***

I think Catfish Hunter is clearly in for his post season performance.  Pettitte has better numbers in comparison.  I am not making the argument that either are clear cut Hall of Famers.

I think Had Mussina stuck around another season or two, won a WS and got a bit closer to 300 he would have a better case.

Pedro does have 1 World Series ring, from 2004.

I would recast the question: If not Santo, why Blyleven; if Santo, why not Boyer? When it comes to marginal Hall of Famers, the arguments are endless, but in the end you're either in or you're out. Were Rabbit Maranville or Enos Slaughter better than any of those three? Life and baseball aren't fair...

Posted by doubletruck on 2/5/2011 10:01:00 PM (view original):
I would recast the question: If not Santo, why Blyleven; if Santo, why not Boyer? When it comes to marginal Hall of Famers, the arguments are endless, but in the end you're either in or you're out. Were Rabbit Maranville or Enos Slaughter better than any of those three? Life and baseball aren't fair...

I agree BUT...

BB-Ref says that there are 17,498 men that have played in the major leagues.  Less the 35 Negro League players there are 199 players in the Hall of Fame.  ONLY 199!!!  Of those 199 players there are 10 Thirdbasemen and 13 Catchers.  You mean to tell me that in 150+ years and 17,500 players there have only been 10 great 3B?  And if so, isn't the HoF more exclusive than you give it credit for?  That is 1 great 3B per GENERATION!  Please let's use the term marginal or borderline a bit more judiciously.

They are supposed to be the greatest players of all time, some of these players are not in the same league with the rest Bilfert, you know that.

Yes I do know that.  But my point is that people are acting like EVERYONE gets in.  

fair enough

Posted by Bilfert on 2/5/2011 1:04:00 PM (view original):
AndyP: 3050 IP, 240-138, 117 ERA+, 50.2 WAR, 19-10, 3.83 in the playoffs, 5 RIngs
Moose: 3560 IP, 270-153, 123 ERA+, 74.8 WAR, 7-8, 3.42 in the playoffs
Morris: 3820 IP, 254-168, 105 ERA+, 39.3 WAR, 7-4, 3.80 in the playoffs
Whitey: 3170.1IP, 236-108, 133 ERA+, 55.3 WAR, 10-8, 2.71 in playoffs 6 WS rings (5 losses)
Pedro Martinez: 2827.1 IP, 219-100, 154 ERA+, 75.9 WAR, 6-4 3.46 in Playoffs, 0 Rings
Catfish Hunter: 3449.1 IP 224-166, 105 ERA+, 32.5 WAR, 9-6 3.26 in Playoff, 5 Rings ***HALL OF FAME***

Catfish Hunter was a mistake.  If he were up for the HoF today, with modern statistical analysis, there is no way he makes it.  BTW, didn't Pedro win a ring with the '04 Red Sox?

I just looked up Catfish....he was really only good 4 years.  He might be the worse pitcher in the HOF.   He did throw 3,000 innings by age 31.  That's cool.

Posted by doubletruck on 2/5/2011 10:01:00 PM (view original):
I would recast the question: If not Santo, why Blyleven; if Santo, why not Boyer? When it comes to marginal Hall of Famers, the arguments are endless, but in the end you're either in or you're out. Were Rabbit Maranville or Enos Slaughter better than any of those three? Life and baseball aren't fair...

Santo and Boyer, especially the former, in all likelyhood eventually get in.  But as for if Santo, why not Boyer?  I'd say because Santo was the better player (and I'll write that as a Cardinal fan.)  Maranville is in because he played a ton of games at shortstop and he was considered an outstanding defender for 23 seasons.  Even if he played today with relatively modern statistical statistical analysis, he'd at least be a borderline HoF candidate similar to the upcoming case for Omar Visquel. 

Eh, Jesse Haines and Waite Hoyt are pretty far down on the low end as well...

Wow Herb Pennock was Catfish Hunter....came up as a teen ager, had 5 good years on good teams, got bought by the Yankees....pretty similar.

He might be the worse pitcher in the HOF.

The ghost of Rube Marquard might have something to say about that.  Similar number of innings to Catfish (about 140 fewer), with a worse won-loss record (201-177), ERA+ (103), WAR (28.5) and no rings (although he did appear in 5 World Series, going 2-5 with a 3.07 ERA).

I read somewhere (maybe Bill James?) that the reason Rube got into the HoF was for sentimental reasons -- namely his interview/chapter in "The Glory of Their Times."

It was a good chapter....