I'd say more than half of Hudson's career he has been nothing special. Nor will he ever be.  Koufax is a hall of famer and was a dominant pitcher in his era.  Hudson's name doesn't even show up in the top ten starting pitchers of his era. 

Posted by cwillis802 on 2/14/2011 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I'd say more than half of Hudson's career he has been nothing special. Nor will he ever be.  Koufax is a hall of famer and was a dominant pitcher in his era.  Hudson's name doesn't even show up in the top ten starting pitchers of his era. 

What criteria do you use to come to these conclusions?

No one's saying that Hudson's the best pitcher ever, only that he's better than most people give him credit for. He's flown under the radar due to the teams he's played on. Very few pitchers in the past couple decades have been as consistently good for as long as Hudson as evidenced by the stats posted in the first post in this thread.

Looking at the stats some more, Hudson's strength is definitely not in having a few dominating years. It's that over the past 12 seasons, he's been one of the most consistently GOOD pitchers. Since Hudson's rookie year of 1999, here's a list of ALL the pitchers who have put up well-rounded seasons of 200 IP, ERA+, OAV+, and WHIP+ over 100, BB/9# under 3, and HR/9# under 0.70 at least 5 times:

Roy Halladay      6
Roy Oswalt         6
Tim Hudson       5
C.C. Sabathia     5

To extend that back another couple decades - since 1980 - we only add to the list 8 more:

Greg Maddux        11
Roger Clemens    9
Kevin Brown           7
Tom Glavine           7
Pedro Martinez       7
Kevin Appier           6
John Smoltz           6
Dennis Martinez    5

Hudson may not have the sparkle other pitchers do, but if I'm looking to put together a team for the long haul, not many modern pitchers are better in terms of long-term value. And coming off a great season, who's to say Hudson's anywhere near done?

(Anyone like the way I tailored the stat criteria to Hudson's favor? Figured I'd better admit it before someone else pointed it out!)

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/13/2011 10:56:00 PM (view original):
Any day?  'Cause for half of his career Koufax was nothing special at all.

Mattesda: This is the post I was referring to when I made the comment about Koufax and Hudson.  I'd say Koufax was a special pitcher and I really don't think Hudson is. 

Posted by cwillis802 on 2/14/2011 12:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/13/2011 10:56:00 PM (view original):
Any day?  'Cause for half of his career Koufax was nothing special at all.

Mattesda: This is the post I was referring to when I made the comment about Koufax and Hudson.  I'd say Koufax was a special pitcher and I really don't think Hudson is. 

They both have similar 12-year career numbers. Is special someone who is mediocre for 6 and great for 6, or someone who is good (not great) almost every season? It depends on what you're looking for. If I'm starting a progressive team today and can have the career of either of these pitchers, it's a very tough call.

I would take Koufax in a progressive in a heartbeat......Hudson won't win you championships on his own.  Sandy just might.

Posted by cwillis802 on 2/14/2011 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I'd say more than half of Hudson's career he has been nothing special. Nor will he ever be.  Koufax is a hall of famer and was a dominant pitcher in his era.  Hudson's name doesn't even show up in the top ten starting pitchers of his era. 

Who are the top 10 pitchers of Hudson's era?

Total WAR (Pitchers), 1999-2010

Player	WAR
Roy Halladay	53.9
Randy Johnson	50.9
Pedro Martinez	47.6
Johan Santana	46.5
Tim Hudson	46.3
Roy Oswalt	44.6
Mark Buehrle	42.9
C.C. Sabathia	42.7
Curt Schilling	42.2
Mariano Rivera	40.1
Mike Mussina	39.8
Javier Vazquez	39.5
Roger Clemens	35.8
Barry Zito	33.0
Andy Pettitte	32.3
Derek Lowe	31.8
Carlos Zambrano	31.1
Freddy Garcia	29.8
Brandon Webb	29.2
Greg Maddux	28.8

Let's get some perspective.  Can you show 1994-2010?

I've always liked Tim Hudson, and his SIM performance history is pretty good for some seasons.  But he sure isn't doing much for my Not The Shiniest Penny in the Roll $80 MM OL team.

Bret Saberhagen '89 (R)		91 (100)	37	13-14	0	233.1	3.82	.263	1.25	4.71	1.85	9.32M
Tim Hudson '03 (R)	Starter #2	100	35	14-13	0	217.0	3.48	.252	1.28	5.02	2.61	7.71M
Derek Lowe '02 (R)		100	34	15-12	0	202.0	3.56	.247	1.27	3.30	2.81	7.63M
Kevin Brown '96 (R)		93 (94)	35	19-8	0	244.1	2.39	.231	1.04	4.46	1.36	8.67M

Since I already have this thread about pitchers who surprised me, does it surprise anyone else that Papelbon is older than K-Rod?  I really thought he was younger than he is and that K-Rod was older than he is.

Also, Ryan Franklin is 37.  I guess he was just under the radar for so long I don't remember him being around as long as he has been...