Posted by zubinsum on 2/14/2011 10:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cwillis802 on 2/14/2011 6:02:00 PM (view original):
Out of curiousity, if Silver King were pitching today would you take him and his 709 IP over 1999's Pedro Martinez?  I mean I guess King could pitch everyday even in today's modern game; just like he does in SimLeague.  Or was he able to pitch so many innings because of a dead ball and because teams travelled by train and had more days off between games so he could rest a little longer.  I'm not sure. 

Before 1894 the distance from the mound to home was significantly shorter.  Pitchers didn't have to throw as hard and because of this, they could pitch more often.  Teams typically employed 2 man rotations back then.  They did have more days off too, but not as many as you might figure since the leagues were much more compact geographically.    The shift to a four man/ four day rotation occured in the five years after the pitching distance change,.  As time went on, generally pitchers were given more rest and rotations went more strictly four-man.  The shift to a five-man / five-day rotation didn't uccur until the 1970s.  I think this was a result of lowering the mound in 1969, tho I have rarely read that.  As the strike zones and ballparks shrunk in the 90s and 2000s, pitchers responded by throwing more hard breaking balls which are harsher on the arm.  As a result a strict five man rotation replaced the five man/ five day rotation.  Modern medical and sabermetric analysis as well as economic necessity has pushed back on the five man rotation a bit in the past few years but it remains the standard.     

Bravo

Posted by llamanunts on 2/14/2011 11:32:00 PM (view original):
Never mind.  I don't think the trains of that era went that fast.

ruh-tarded

Posted by llamanunts on 2/14/2011 11:31:00 PM (view original):
I'm pretty sure Silver King topped out around 75 mph.

I think 75mph is where he routinely threw as that would give a similar reaction time as batters now have to a 90mph pitch.  (75mph * 60.5/50 =  90.75mph).  I have little doubt that he could have topped out in the mid-eighties at least if he'd wanted to.  I know he couldn't have thrown that hard pitching every other game tho. 

The man was a professional athelete and 6' 170#, so he would have been tall even for today.  Considering that the average out-of-shape American can toss a baseball at least 60mph, 75 is a pretty low estimate even if the guy sling the ball sidearm without a windup.  Beside that, King was known as a fastball pitcher.




Interesting note about King.  He quit baseball because he could make more money as a bricklayer.

That is an interesting note about King.  I wondered why his career wasn't that long.  One thing about SimLeague that I just can't agree with most of you on is the effectiveness of closers. The fact that so many closers blow so many games is the least realistic aspect of the game. I wish that would be addressed in the programmring.  A lot of guys I've talked to agree.  Those guys just don't write on this forum.  :-) Thanks again for the discussion.  Realistic or not, I still enjoy the game. 

The top 25 guys in saves during the 2010 MLB season totaled 120 blown saves, or an average of 4.8 BS each.

I just checked out the closers from the $100M Exclusive Ownership league I was in (so no clones or 24 Riveras).  The top 25 guys in saves had a total of 100 blown saves, or an average of 4 BS each.

So I looked at a $140M Franchise-based league I was in.  The top 25 guys in saves had a total of 115 blown saves, or an average of 4.6 BS each.

Then I looked at another $140M Franchise-based league.  The top 25 guys in saves had a total of 124 blown saves, or an average of 4.96 BS each.

A $110M DH league.  The top 25 guys in saves had a total of 74 blown saves, or an average of 2.96 BS each.

A $120M league.  The top 25 guys in saves had a total of 132 blown saves, or an average of 5.28 BS each.

Looks like the closers in the leagues I've been in have been doing just fine.

They aren't blowing enough saves! Fix the sim!

skunk - there you go with those pesky facts again ...

Read the book 59 in 84. (59 wins in 1884)  It's a great read about Hoss Radbourne and what pitching back in the day of two-man rotations was like. Bottom line, no, those guys could not pitch like that today.

OK Willis...   Here is a table for the stats of Mariano Rivera from a 120mil league I am in where he faces HOF lineups daily.  It is a larger set of data, so I wanted you to see it.  He is doing well considering who he is facing.  However, it isnt as well as real life by a mile.

Past Season Totals - Regular Season
League	Owner	G	GS	W	L	SV	SVO	IP	BFP	NP	H	ER	HR	BB	SO	OAV	OBP	SLG	WHIP	ERA
93074	wedhead36	49	0	2	7	30	36	45.3	205	683	55	24	8	12	23	.288	.328	.445	1.48	4.76
93074	winterhawk	64	0	7	2	0	5	67.7	287	1008	60	22	5	27	41	.233	.308	.350	1.29	2.93
93074	dweigel	59	0	6	3	5	8	56.0	236	833	55	18	2	16	34	.255	.315	.329	1.27	2.89
93074	wonker	44	0	0	3	39	43	38.7	173	588	45	10	3	9	30	.276	.312	.362	1.40	2.33
93074	Cheno5	59	0	2	1	31	41	62.3	257	894	58	29	13	18	30	.244	.296	.437	1.22	4.19
93074	je3rd	83	0	1	2	0	2	97.7	435	1609	97	44	0	45	101	.253	.331	.303	1.45	4.05
91992	eschwartz67	60	0	4	4	4	4	62.0	296	978	92	43	5	16	39	.337	.380	.465	1.74	6.24
91992	splitter24	73	0	5	5	1	2	79.3	322	1152	62	25	10	19	62	.207	.259	.324	1.02	2.84
91992	nin311ff	118	0	2	12	10	19	135.3	648	2330	179	121	32	84	74	.324	.417	.563	1.94	8.05
91992	dweigel	66	0	5	2	7	10	65.3	269	977	60	21	6	14	59	.237	.280	.356	1.13	2.89
91992	jmc44	43	0	0	4	34	39	39.3	167	574	41	16	3	8	27	.261	.305	.344	1.25	3.66
91992	diblock318	48	0	5	4	24	31	39.7	194	688	54	24	4	20	27	.316	.389	.427	1.87	5.45
90984	elduro25	60	0	2	5	1	3	47.7	210	736	60	26	7	9	44	.308	.346	.446	1.45	4.91
90984	pmwksw	60	0	7	7	18	22	67.0	271	982	58	26	9	19	63	.233	.290	.365	1.15	3.49
90984	j33hp	48	0	3	1	40	47	46.0	201	698	59	17	5	8	40	.307	.333	.406	1.46	3.33
90984	kstober	78	0	5	2	6	8	108.7	462	1708	93	39	1	50	102	.227	.312	.264	1.32	3.23
90984	AKlopp	74	0	5	4	3	7	81.7	334	1182	65	37	10	31	64	.216	.290	.372	1.18	4.08
90984	vark48	49	0	1	0	42	48	46.7	178	633	22	7	2	19	25	.139	.236	.203	0.88	1.35
89747	shysters3	44	0	1	2	36	41	39.3	175	611	44	14	4	9	31	.272	.320	.383	1.35	3.20
89747	xxevilivexx	22	0	0	1	0	2	24.7	127	482	35	25	4	17	16	.327	.429	.570	2.11	9.12
89747	bev148	68	0	5	5	11	16	73.0	322	1142	78	31	4	19	58	.263	.320	.320	1.33	3.82
89747	razorclams	69	0	4	5	35	39	66.0	267	957	48	16	2	28	43	.204	.292	.268	1.15	2.18
89747	specsman	52	0	5	0	41	49	71.0	304	1137	61	17	0	34	61	.230	.319	.260	1.34	2.15
88632	dspahlinger	64	0	6	6	22	27	61.3	262	915	57	25	4	23	36	.239	.305	.332	1.30	3.67
88632	wedhead36	81	0	1	3	3	7	73.0	321	1118	88	30	7	16	61	.289	.327	.382	1.42	3.70
88632	celticus	59	0	6	4	5	9	51.0	235	832	60	32	6	24	37	.286	.359	.429	1.65	5.65
88632	llcoach	66	0	3	13	37	43	60.3	260	929	66	38	15	15	64	.270	.313	.475	1.34	5.67
88632	splitter24	67	0	5	5	7	15	68.7	313	1087	83	42	5	21	46	.291	.348	.386	1.51	5.50
88632	dewelch71	58	0	2	5	38	43	51.3	200	679	33	16	4	14	33	.182	.250	.276	0.92	2.81
88632	crackatoeha	99	0	8	3	3	8	99.0	386	1444	56	26	1	35	96	.163	.251	.204	0.92	2.36
Career	Totals	1907	0	112	120	533	675	1,953.7	8436	30040	1945	868	182	691	1497	.255	.320	.366	1.35	4.00

Posted by cwillis802 on 2/17/2011 11:40:00 PM (view original):
That is an interesting note about King.  I wondered why his career wasn't that long.  One thing about SimLeague that I just can't agree with most of you on is the effectiveness of closers. The fact that so many closers blow so many games is the least realistic aspect of the game. I wish that would be addressed in the programmring.  A lot of guys I've talked to agree.  Those guys just don't write on this forum.  :-) Thanks again for the discussion.  Realistic or not, I still enjoy the game. 

If you have the right closers, they shouldn't blow many saves.  Cla Meredith `06 has 40 saves in 41 save opportunities for one of my teams.  Johnny Niggeling `43 has 27 saves in 28 opportunities; Neftali Feliz `09 has 25 of 27.  You get the idea.  If you have the right guys and you use them right (no fatigue and no excessive pitch counts), you shouldn't see a significantly higher proportion of blown saves in SIM than in RL, although ERA will tend to be a little higher due to the uniformly high quality of opposing hitters, as discussed elsewhere in this thread. 

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/18/2011 6:35:00 AM (view original):
Read the book 59 in 84. (59 wins in 1884)  It's a great read about Hoss Radbourne and what pitching back in the day of two-man rotations was like. Bottom line, no, those guys could not pitch like that today.

Excellent book... Easily one of my favorite baseball books from the last several years.