Eecheerow Topic

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jfranco77
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The Hall of Fame is not only a way of honoring the greatest players to play the game, it's a museum representing the history of the game. Can anyone argue that Ichiro isn't one of the 25 or so most important players to our game's history?  
3/29/2011 3:07 PM
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contrarian23
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Bill James made the point in one of his recent books that Robinson's role in baseball history has somewhat overshadowed what a great great player he was on the field.  Not dramatically so - I think most fans of the game realize he was terrific - but most people have a reaction similar to crazystengel when the study the numbers.  Robinson was an awesome player.
3/29/2011 7:16 PM
Trentonjoe
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His career WAR stats put him above the "bad" HOF'ers (tinker, slaughter, perez) but  kinda on the bottom of the marginal HOF'ers (Dawson, Dickey,Medwick).

He will (and should) get credit because he missed probably 4-5 years of his career. Add in another 20 to his career WAR and he is Pete Rose.
3/29/2011 8:02 PM
llamanunts
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By WAR he looks good year-by-year (and in some cases career already) versus, say...

Manny
Vlad
Sheff
(He CRUSHES Puckett. Just threw that in for fun.)
Andruw
Sosa
Larry Walker
Beltran
NOT Jim Edmonds*

Just grabbing a few names off the top of my head.  The guy belongs.  Who are the better outfielders?  You got Bonds, Griffey, and...

*Holy ****.  Take another look at Jim Edmonds right now.  Right now.  Here: www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/edmonji01.shtml

THAT is what a Hall of Famer looks like.  I say this as a gigantic Bernie Williams fan.  Yes, his career coincided perfectly with the Musclebound Monster era.  He hit like those guys.  He played first-rate center field, which is no joke.**

**Not threadjacking!  Ichiro has been a great player.
3/30/2011 12:39 AM
zubinsum
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Posted by jfranco77 on 3/29/2011 3:07:00 PM (view original):
The Hall of Fame is not only a way of honoring the greatest players to play the game, it's a museum representing the history of the game. Can anyone argue that Ichiro isn't one of the 25 or so most important players to our game's history?  

Um I think that you need to argue that he was one of the 25 most important players in the game's history.  I don't think he is even close.  Besides players, like Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, Joe Jackson were also important and are definately not HoFers.  Curt Flood is hugely important and probably deserves recognition somehow, tho I am not sure he should be in the HoF.

3/30/2011 3:44 AM
pfattkatt
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IMO, if any of baseball's labor leaders make it into the hall,then Flood belongs, too. His lawsuit laid the foundation for everything that is wrong with the game now.  I imagine someone else would have brought the suit eventually, and I suppose it also needed to be done. Ichiro is a HOF'er by the "he is better than the worst players in the HOF" argument, but I think he needs a little more "body of work" to get in. I do think he deserves it. Edmonds really flew under the radar. It seems everyone from that era suffers from the steroid use possibilities, even players who were never accused. Edmonds may be thrown into that pool, as has Jeff Bagwell.
3/30/2011 8:26 AM
Bilfert
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Posted by zubinsum on 3/30/2011 3:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jfranco77 on 3/29/2011 3:07:00 PM (view original):
The Hall of Fame is not only a way of honoring the greatest players to play the game, it's a museum representing the history of the game. Can anyone argue that Ichiro isn't one of the 25 or so most important players to our game's history?  

Um I think that you need to argue that he was one of the 25 most important players in the game's history.  I don't think he is even close.  Besides players, like Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, Joe Jackson were also important and are definately not HoFers.  Curt Flood is hugely important and probably deserves recognition somehow, tho I am not sure he should be in the HoF.

I would argue that the definitive term "definitely" cannot be used with Rose and Jackson.  I again argue that there are about 200 people in the Hall of Fame and almost 18,000 have played the game.  If Ichiro is not a Hall of Famer, I do not know what you need to do to get in.  According to some you need to simply generate runs to get in.  It is the Hall of Run Generators.  There is no room in the HoF for guys that get hits, score runs, steal bases, play defense, strike people out or get saves. 
3/30/2011 11:41 AM
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just4me
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Or how about this information:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in (·)
Gray Ink Batting - 60 (416), Average HOFer ˜ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 88 (189), Likely HOFer ˜ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 39 (165), Average HOFer ˜ 50

Even looking at his numbers, I don't really see Edmonds as a HOF. He was fun to watch and a good player, but frankly, I see Mark Grace as a similar HOF candidate as Edmonds and here are Grace's HOF Statistics:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in (·)
Black Ink Batting - 3 (518), Average HOFer ˜ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 86 (266), Average HOFer ˜ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 60 (315), Likely HOFer ˜ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 38 (180), Average HOFer ˜ 50

Not that I think Grace is ultimately deserving... I could come up with some arguments for him, but I was using this to show that Edmonds isn't really a HOF candidate.
3/30/2011 3:00 PM
jfranco77
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Posted by zubinsum on 3/30/2011 3:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jfranco77 on 3/29/2011 3:07:00 PM (view original):
The Hall of Fame is not only a way of honoring the greatest players to play the game, it's a museum representing the history of the game. Can anyone argue that Ichiro isn't one of the 25 or so most important players to our game's history?  

Um I think that you need to argue that he was one of the 25 most important players in the game's history.  I don't think he is even close.  Besides players, like Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, Joe Jackson were also important and are definately not HoFers.  Curt Flood is hugely important and probably deserves recognition somehow, tho I am not sure he should be in the HoF.

Nomo was kind of a flash in the pan, but even though he made a big splash, I think Ichiro is the most important Japanese player in MLB history. He dragged a lot of teams into scouting Asian players a lot more than they did before (if they did at all). He had arguably one of the 2 or 3 biggest impact rookie seasons in history. He basically saved the Mariners franchise after they lost A-Rod, Unit and Junior. He made the Mariners far and away the biggest team in Japan. He broke a major record held by Rogers Hornsby. When you go to the Hall of Fame with your kids and tell them about baseball in this era, won't you include Ichiro? 

I'm not really qualified to write a list like that, but I think Ichiro clearly belongs on it.

Let's go something like this:

1. Ruth
2. Jackie
3. Flood
4. Clemente (biggest influence on bringing in Latin players, though not first)
5. Canseco (I'm assigning him blame for popularizing steroids)
6. Mays (Jackie was first and showed why you needed to integrate ... Mays showed why you wanted to)
7. Nolan Ryan (trying to strike out every single hitter)
8. Ripken (shortstops can be 6'4 220 now too?)
9. Hal Chase (I'm assigning him the ultimate blame for the Black Sox)
10. Aaron (endured a lot in breaking Ruth's record)
11. Ichiro
12. Bonds (took steroids even one step further than Canseco)
13. Nellie Fox (brought speed back to the game)
14. Fernando (Mexican players, helped recovery from 81 strike)
15. McGwire/Sosa (helped recovery from 94 strike)
16. Drysdale/Koufax (contract negotiations a precursor to Flood)
17. Firpo Marberry (first great "relief ace")

I'm not including guys like Bresnahan (invented shin guards), Ray Chapman (who died and got the spitball banned), McGraw (impact as a manager), Candy Cummings (invented the curveball), Bouton (changed how sports journalists worked), and other players whose contributions were really outside the game on the field.
3/30/2011 3:36 PM
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