Gray Ink - Not very interesting to compare a CF in the expansion era to the average HOFer.
Monitor - He's close to "Likely" without taking defense (position and quality) into account.
Standards - This is just a crappy way to measure quality.

Do me a favor.  Look at his career year-by-year and count the HOF-quality seasons.  You're going to get to at least 8.  Now, think of some other contemporary outfielders.  How many do they have?  Now, of the guys in the ballpark, how many of them were excellent defenders?

See where I'm going here?  Other than Griffey and Bonds, who was better?  Let's say there were four contemporaries who were better.  Does that mean that between 1995 and 2010 there were a total of four or fewer OFs worthy of the Hall?

Also, Ichiro has been great.

Wait, Mark Grace?  Wasn't Mark Grace obviously an inferior hitter to Edmonds?  Didn't he play the least-demanding position on the field?

Also, Ichiro has been great.

Posted by jfranco77 on 3/30/2011 3:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zubinsum on 3/30/2011 3:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jfranco77 on 3/29/2011 3:07:00 PM (view original):
The Hall of Fame is not only a way of honoring the greatest players to play the game, it's a museum representing the history of the game. Can anyone argue that Ichiro isn't one of the 25 or so most important players to our game's history?  

Um I think that you need to argue that he was one of the 25 most important players in the game's history.  I don't think he is even close.  Besides players, like Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, Joe Jackson were also important and are definately not HoFers.  Curt Flood is hugely important and probably deserves recognition somehow, tho I am not sure he should be in the HoF.

Nomo was kind of a flash in the pan, but even though he made a big splash, I think Ichiro is the most important Japanese player in MLB history. He dragged a lot of teams into scouting Asian players a lot more than they did before (if they did at all). He had arguably one of the 2 or 3 biggest impact rookie seasons in history. He basically saved the Mariners franchise after they lost A-Rod, Unit and Junior. He made the Mariners far and away the biggest team in Japan. He broke a major record held by Rogers Hornsby. When you go to the Hall of Fame with your kids and tell them about baseball in this era, won't you include Ichiro? 

I'm not really qualified to write a list like that, but I think Ichiro clearly belongs on it.

Let's go something like this:

1. Ruth
2. Jackie
3. Flood
4. Clemente (biggest influence on bringing in Latin players, though not first)
5. Canseco (I'm assigning him blame for popularizing steroids)
6. Mays (Jackie was first and showed why you needed to integrate ... Mays showed why you wanted to)
7. Nolan Ryan (trying to strike out every single hitter)
8. Ripken (shortstops can be 6'4 220 now too?)
9. Hal Chase (I'm assigning him the ultimate blame for the Black Sox)
10. Aaron (endured a lot in breaking Ruth's record)
11. Ichiro
12. Bonds (took steroids even one step further than Canseco)
13. Nellie Fox (brought speed back to the game)
14. Fernando (Mexican players, helped recovery from 81 strike)
15. McGwire/Sosa (helped recovery from 94 strike)
16. Drysdale/Koufax (contract negotiations a precursor to Flood)
17. Firpo Marberry (first great "relief ace")

I'm not including guys like Bresnahan (invented shin guards), Ray Chapman (who died and got the spitball banned), McGraw (impact as a manager), Candy Cummings (invented the curveball), Bouton (changed how sports journalists worked), and other players whose contributions were really outside the game on the field.

Kudos for knowing who Nellie Fox is...

On the other hand, only 4 on your list played before 1950 (and Jackie Robinson just barely).

Other historic figures I'd be looking for --

(1) Who popularized the spitball, thus eventually forcing a rules change to eliminate it?
(2) Who invented the bunt?
(3) Who invented the pitcher's mound?

Etc.

Posted by boogerlips on 3/30/2011 2:50:00 PM (view original):
Nobody loves Jimmy Ballgame more than I do, but I've never thought of him as a HOFer.

Perhaps you should start.  And yes, I'm too cool to read the other thread.

Also, Ichiro has been great.

Braziman, jfranco or whomever: Ichiro broke a record set by George Sisler, not Rogers Hornsby. And I doubt anyone ever accused Nellie Fox of putting speed back in the game, although they might have so credited his friend Aparicio.

Ichiro is important and should make the Hall, but I don't think a jury of our peers is unanimous on his being among the most influential in MLB history.

The most influential next to Ruth was probably Branch Rickey, though as a general manager instead of as a player.

Do me a favor. Look at his career year-by-year and count the HOF-quality seasons. You're going to get to at least 8. Now, think of some other contemporary outfielders. How many do they have? Now, of the guys in the ballpark, how many of them were excellent defenders?

See where I'm going here? Other than Griffey and Bonds, who was better?Let's say there were four contemporaries who were better. Does that mean that between 1995 and 2010 there were a total of four or fewer OFs worthy of the Hall?


1.  Larry Walker
2.  Sammy Sosa
3. Barry Bonds
4. Albert Belle (91-99)
5.  Tim Salmon
6. Paul O'Neil
7.  Manny Ramirez
8.  Juan Gonzalez
9. Ken Griffey Jr.
10. Kenny Lofton
11. Ichiro Suzuki
12.  Bernie Williams
13. David Justice
14. Moises Alou
15. Vlad Guerrero
16. Luis Gonzalez
17. Brian Giles (look at his OPS+)
18. Bobby Abreau

I don't know, Edmonds is maybe 8th or 9th in that group offensively.   Is he first defensively?  I don't know.  Is he 5th?  I don't know.

He isn't as good as Dave Winfield but he's better than Andruw Jones.  What's that get you?  

Posted by llamanunts on 3/30/2011 3:42:00 PM (view original):
Wait, Mark Grace?  Wasn't Mark Grace obviously an inferior hitter to Edmonds?  Didn't he play the least-demanding position on the field?

Also, Ichiro has been great.

I am not making an argument that Mark Grace should be a HOF, however i do think with just under 2500 hits and 500+ doubles he was a hell of a player.  But an interesting fact is that he led all of baseball in hits in the 1990's with over 1700.   That makes him  only the 2nd player to lead the majors in hits over a decade and NOT be in the HOF.  I am sure you can guess who the other player is.

As far as Jim Edmonds, i have always enjoyed watching him play, his defense and power were awesome, but definitely not in the Hall of Fame in my book.

Grace also had the most doubles in the 90's with over 350 and was a superior defensive 1B. I'd say defensively he was as good at 1B as Edmonds was in CF relative to their peers. Referencing TJ's list above, I'd probably list Edmonds (including his defensive) as around the 7th or 8th best OF of his contemporaries. Listing Grace's contemporaries (including defense) I'd probably put him at about the 8th or 9th best 1B of his time (possibly behind Bagwell, Mcgwire, Thomas, Helton, Olerud, Clark, McGriff, Palmeiro, Delgado).

Anyway, my point has never been that Grace is a HOFer, just that Edmonds isn't. he was good to great (just like Grace), but not the best, or one of the best, of his generation.

I do think Ichiro is a HOF candidate. Especially with a few more seasons under his belt. But even as is, I'd probably vote for Ichiro.

And, after looking at TJ's list of OFs, and seeing the comment following regarding Walker being overlooked due to the Coors factor, it occured to me that when I think of Walker, I don't even think of him as a Rockie. When I think of him I see an Expo.

"The only names on T'j's list that will wind up in Cooperstown are Ramirez, Griffey and Suzuki -- unless all is someday forgiven and the voters also accept Bonds and Sosa."

I think Vlad gets in...he is only 36 and probably will get to 3,000 and 500.