Should Admin step up? They want to know! - SimLeague Baseball

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Long paste ahead.

The gist: Apparently the pinch hitting hierarchy is not actually that. If you have Greaty McGee listed above Soso Averageberg in the hierarchies, Averageberg can still hit for Greaty. Should this be the case?

Admin initially says this shouldn't happen, then says it should. All in all, their answers were good, if not super-prompt. Please note that at the end they recommend opening it up to y'all. So, here:

11/6/2010 6:38 PM	llamanunts
How can Jerry Adair pinch hit for Roy Thomas in this game? He's below Thomas in every situation in the pinch hitting hierarchies.
11/11/2010 8:51 AM	Customer Support
Scott, Unless there is an injury or an ejection, a player below another player on the proper PH hierarchy should not ever replace the current player at the plate. Is there any chance you updated your PH hierarchies after this game? Or did you adjust your "Automatically Update Hierarchies with Recommendations when Calling-up AAA" user setting after this game? Thanks
11/11/2010 9:09 AM	llamanunts
No - when I saw it I checked the hierarchies immediately and they were already set with Adair lower than Thomas.
11/11/2010 8:05 PM	llamanunts
http://whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=13173593&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=12.95 That's a similar case. Gross is ahead of Ott in "Other" only. In Late/Close, Ott is ahead of Gross vs. both righties and lefties. 1-0 in the 8th, Gross should not come in for Ott. That's definitely late/close, no?
11/19/2010 7:56 PM	llamanunts
http://whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=13252683&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=12.95 B.Inge enters the game at C to rest the starter Why? Bologna is ahead on the Rest hierarchy, Inge on the Defensive Replacements. You don't really need a defensive replacement in a 26-0 game, do you? This is certainly a Rest situation. I know I'm laying out a few different scenarios in this ticket, but something has to be out of whack with the substitutions, right?
11/20/2010 11:19 AM	Customer Support
Scott, For the Bologna question, when a game reaches a point where rest can be issued, it's always about resting the starter for that game. Unlike the PH hierarchy, the manager is looking to find the first available guy on the hierarchy to rest the starter. So, while Bologna is ahead of Inge on the Rest hierarchy, he's the starter so the manager is looking to rest him. If you don't want a player to be lifted for rest, you can uncheck the Rest box on the Advanced Hitter settings page. We're still evaluating the PH scenarios outlined previously. Thanks
11/20/2010 12:29 PM	llamanunts
Excellent, thank you.
11/22/2010 8:29 AM	llamanunts
http://whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=13271292&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=12.95 Wilson Delgado pinch-hits for Roy Thomas, late-close, below Thomas in all hierarchies.
12/18/2010 9:57 PM	llamanunts
http://whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=13503031&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=12.95 Down 3-1, late, Dickie Thon pinch-hits for Walt Weiss despite being below in late-close hierarchies.
12/27/2010 10:12 AM	Customer Support
Scott, We spent some more time digging into the Thon reference you have. Under this situation and looking at the current PH hierarchies, Thon should not be hitting for Weiss. Are you sure you haven't changed hierarchies since this game? Have you made AAA moves that triggered the auto hierarchy adjustment (User Settings via Team Center page)? We'd like to resolve this as it's got us baffled. Thanks
12/27/2010 10:52 AM	llamanunts
I see these situations while going through the play-by-play of each game. If I see one, I check the hierarchies to confirm that there's an issue and then update this ticket before making any changes. I don't have the auto hierarchy adjustment enabled. Thanks for continuing to look at this.
12/28/2010 9:20 AM	Customer Support
Thanks. Please continue to do so and we'll get to the bottom of this.
2/1/2011 7:05 PM	llamanunts
http://whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=13851195&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=12.95 Weaver hits for Cy Williams, game tied, 9th inning. Weaver is below Cy in late/close of all types.
2/2/2011 5:06 PM	Customer Support
Scott, We reviewed this situation again today and realized we misinformed you on 11/11/2010 with regards to pinch-hitting. When looking for a pinch-hitter, the manager does not stop when finding the incumbent on the PH hierarchy. Rather, the manager scans the list until he finds the first available player. He then compares that player to the incumbent. This is a statistical comparison based on situation (in this case, Late and Close needing contact) and opposing pitcher arm. Here, Weaver was a better choice than Williams. To avoid having a specific player pinch-hit for, you can adjust their PH setting on the Advanced Settings page. We apologize for the misinformation -- we got our PH and Def Rep hierarchy logic backwards. Thanks
2/25/2011 7:55 PM	llamanunts
I didn't reply for a while because I just couldn't process that information. It seems crazy... How is that a good idea? It's just so obvious... you have to consider the incumbent there. It's the dadgum Pinch Hitting Heirarchy! It's a heirarchy. For pinch hitting. I beg you. Please review and change this.
2/25/2011 8:00 PM	llamanunts
Addendum: Yes, I want to be able to pinch hit for Cy Williams with Weaver. In blowouts, where rest settings might apply. I definitely don't want him coming in for Cy in any late/close situations. This settings config addresses that situation perfectly in a way that no other config does. If there's a strategic/settings downside to changing that, I can't see it. Please tell my why I'm wrong if I am wrong. Thanks.
3/15/2011 9:55 AM	Customer Support
Scott, Sorry for the much delayed response to your last comment. We initially designed our PH hierarchy in the manner you described. It lead to problems where not all users micromanaged their teams and too many situations occurred where better hitters were not being used to PH due to fatigue situations and starting/benching situations. Technically, this is an easy change. If you feel strongly about this, we suggest bringing the issue up in the forums to solicit opinions from other players. We are not opposed to making the change, but it's one that caused issues in the past. Thanks

3/30/2011 12:54 AM

just4me

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I'm with you on this one... I quit allowing PH at all on my teams about 4 months ago because it never seemed to work the way I was intending it to and I found myself frustrated all the time. I never had time to really look at it or the situations, so I didn't send in a ticket, I just unchecekd the PH hit box from all of my players, including most of my pitchers.

If it works the way I thought it should (the way you described), I'd use PH again.

3/30/2011 1:10 AM

dahsdebater

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I hadn't even noticed this because I rarely go into a lot of depth looking at my boxscores anymore. Maybe that's why I keep getting less good at this game... Well anyway, I do see some issues in my boxscores. Seems ridiculous that we're seeing PHers who aren't as good as the guys they are PHing for. What's it doing, deciding it's a situation in which a good batter is needed and automatically associating "good batter" with PHer essentially regardless of how good the starting hitter in that spot is?

3/30/2011 3:36 AM

uncleal

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I almost always turn PHing for position players off. I rarely have enough hitters on the bench better then my worst starter to make it worth consideration. (Even if I have 2 or 3, I'm still likely to do that, wanting to save those hitters for the pitcher's slot.)

3/30/2011 9:59 AM

llamanunts

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I think in the Cy/Weaver example, the word "contact" is key. Sparky decided that contact (probably AVG) was called for more than power or OBP in that situation. Of course, I disagree with Sparky. That's why I set up the hierarchy the way I did.

Does anyone think that Sparky should not stop at the incumbent when going down the PH hierarchies?

3/30/2011 10:01 AM

llamanunts

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Posted by uncleal on 3/30/2011 9:59:00 AM (view original):
I almost always turn PHing for position players off. I rarely have enough hitters on the bench better then my worst starter to make it worth consideration. (Even if I have 2 or 3, I'm still likely to do that, wanting to save those hitters for the pitcher's slot.)

Sure, but wouldn't you like to be able to take a starter out of a blowout by pinch-hitting for him - rather than having him use a PA then get replaced on the basepaths or in the field, for example?

3/30/2011 10:03 AM

Bilfert

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I am starting to think that they don't care at all and it is what it is. I have a vision of 4 guys in a room trying to run the 600 games they have on this site with everyone complaining that they need to get better. I feel like there was this big forum design and little has been done since then. I am a usually a big Support apologist so don't think I am another complainer. But they came up with the idea is "Suggestions" tzentmeyer has not replied or posted in that thread since CHRISTMAS. If they can't reply to suggestions, I am not sure how they have time to refine the subtleties of the game.

3/30/2011 11:36 AM

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pfattkatt

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It seems that the question they are asking is: Under what circumstances do we want Weaver PHing for Williams? I don't know what Weaver or Williams we are talking about. Generally, I like this simulation better than Strat-O-Matic, but SOM is much, much better when it comes to limitimg player usage, Phing, RP usage, and things of this nature. This game is getting tedious to me because of these issues. I would recommend that the game designers purchase a few seasons of SOM, and incorporate some of the features of that game. I have the feeling that no one in the Admin is losing any sleep over any of the issues we raise, there are lots of small fixes which could be made without too much dificulty. Do they ever read the forums? I doubt it.

3/30/2011 1:32 PM

markeking

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If I followed this discussion, it seems admin is on the horns of a dilemma. On one side, you have experienced users who want to set everything themselves and on the other you have relative newbies (and others who don't "micro-manage" their teams) who often screw up the settings and end up frustrated because Sparky followed their unintentionally idiotic directions. I sympathize. Imagine a newbie finishes drafting his first team and is then confronted with screen after screen of settings that he barely understands. Unless he's willing to devote the time to figure it out (time he may or may not have), frustration is the likely result along with its sad first cousin, idiotic choices.

I wonder if a simple solution would be to have a single choice at the top of all the hierarchy and advanced setting screens asking if you want to have these settings done automatically by the computer or whether you want to set them manually yourself. Check "auto" and you're done, your team is ready to go. Check "manual" and you plow through the existing screens. But, if you choose "manual" then admin should set its programming to actually follow (rather than override) the owner's manual settings. Otherwise what's the point? At least then the newbie could check the "auto set" box and let the computer do the work. But having done so, he shouldn't complain about the choices the computer made since he had his chance to set it how he wanted it and passed.

3/30/2011 6:01 PM (edited)

uncleal

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Posted by llamanunts on 3/30/2011 10:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by uncleal on 3/30/2011 9:59:00 AM (view original):
I almost always turn PHing for position players off. I rarely have enough hitters on the bench better then my worst starter to make it worth consideration. (Even if I have 2 or 3, I'm still likely to do that, wanting to save those hitters for the pitcher's slot.)
Sure, but wouldn't you like to be able to take a starter out of a blowout by pinch-hitting for him - rather than having him use a PA then get replaced on the basepaths or in the field, for example?

I utilize this wonderful setting known as "rest player" -- sure, it happens in the field, but it's inning-blind, which ensures that the rest gets applied fairly.

To answer the original topic... I'm always in favor of more options. A checkbox do to either (consider incumbent or not), would probably be useful. Probably 3, one for each of the three PH situations they give.

3/30/2011 6:01 PM (edited)

llamanunts

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Fair enough, but why wouldn't you want to be *able* to pinch hit for your good hitters in a blowout? Why would you rather have them rack up an extra PA?

3/30/2011 6:05 PM

llamanunts

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Posted by markeking on 3/30/2011 6:01:00 PM (view original):
If I followed this discussion, it seems admin is on the horns of a dilemma. On one side, you have experienced users who want to set everything themselves and on the other you have relative newbies (and others who don't "micro-manage" their teams) who often screw up the settings and end up frustrated because Sparky followed their unintentionally idiotic directions. I sympathize. Imagine a newbie finishes drafting his first team and is then confronted with screen after screen of settings that he barely understands. Unless he's willing to devote the time to figure it out (time he may or may not have), frustration is the likely result along with its sad first cousin, idiotic choices.

I wonder if a simple solution would be to have a single choice at the top of all the hierarchy and advanced setting screens asking if you want to have these settings done automatically by the computer or whether you want to set them manually yourself. Check "auto" and you're done, your team is ready to go. Check "manual" and you plow through the existing screens. But, if you choose "manual" then admin should set its programming to actually follow (rather than override) the owner's manual settings. Otherwise what's the point? At least then the newbie could check the "auto set" box and let the computer do the work. But having done so, he shouldn't complain about the choices the computer made since he had his chance to set it how he wanted it and passed.

You already have auto and manual. If you set up your hierarchies in a particular way, that's Manual. If you don't, and go with the defaults, that's Auto.

I don't understand what micro-managing vs. not has to do with this. If you're not "micro-managing", you don't care what the hierarchies say. If you are, the system handles it wrong.

Serious question: In what scenario does a noob lose because the Sparky didn't stop at the incumbent?

3/30/2011 6:08 PM

uncleal

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Posted by llamanunts on 3/30/2011 6:05:00 PM (view original):
Fair enough, but why wouldn't you want to be *able* to pinch hit for your good hitters in a blowout? Why would you rather have them rack up an extra PA?

I suppose I just don't feel the realism of PHing for a better hitter with a weaker one, ever. Though, because this isn't real baseball, yes, an option for this might be nice, I'm not sure I'm in favor of it being enforced though... Like I said, I prefer more options.

3/30/2011 7:57 PM

markeking

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Posted by llamanunts on 3/30/2011 6:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by markeking on 3/30/2011 6:01:00 PM (view original):
If I followed this discussion, it seems admin is on the horns of a dilemma. On one side, you have experienced users who want to set everything themselves and on the other you have relative newbies (and others who don't "micro-manage" their teams) who often screw up the settings and end up frustrated because Sparky followed their unintentionally idiotic directions. I sympathize. Imagine a newbie finishes drafting his first team and is then confronted with screen after screen of settings that he barely understands. Unless he's willing to devote the time to figure it out (time he may or may not have), frustration is the likely result along with its sad first cousin, idiotic choices.

I wonder if a simple solution would be to have a single choice at the top of all the hierarchy and advanced setting screens asking if you want to have these settings done automatically by the computer or whether you want to set them manually yourself. Check "auto" and you're done, your team is ready to go. Check "manual" and you plow through the existing screens. But, if you choose "manual" then admin should set its programming to actually follow (rather than override) the owner's manual settings. Otherwise what's the point? At least then the newbie could check the "auto set" box and let the computer do the work. But having done so, he shouldn't complain about the choices the computer made since he had his chance to set it how he wanted it and passed.
You already have auto and manual. If you set up your hierarchies in a particular way, that's Manual. If you don't, and go with the defaults, that's Auto.

I don't understand what micro-managing vs. not has to do with this. If you're not "micro-managing", you don't care what the hierarchies say. If you are, the system handles it wrong.

Serious question: In what scenario does a noob lose because the Sparky didn't stop at the incumbent?

Admin has made it a little more complicated than that. Anytime you change your roster (either by calling up AAA or doing a trade or waiver wire transaction), the players you drop are removed from your hierarchies but their replacements aren't automatically slotted in. You have to do that manually or you just have blanks where the departed players were. I have always thought that was a stupid way to handle it but that's the default.

I agree with you that there is no reason for the system to ignore your settings. The reason admin offered for doing so didn't make any sense to me either. If I take the time to set all those options, why wouldn't I want the manager to follow them. And, as you point out, even if I don't take the time to set them, excluding the "rest scenerio" I'd always want my best hitter at the plate. I sure wouldn't want an inferior hitter to PH for a better one in a crucial situation. As to the rest issue, I think you have to set your "rest" parameters to deal with that (as others have noted) rather than trying to get Sparky to PH for your best hitters in some situations but not in others.

3/31/2011 2:39 AM

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