Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 10:02:00 AM (view original):
At the end of the day, I just think the 23-5-0 vote says more than the stats we look at 28 years later.  If it had been 15-7-6, you'd at least be able to argue that some of the voters saw then what your numbers are telling you now.   Then you could say "Yeah, they're dumbasses."   I just don't think 28 of them are all dumbasses who got it wrong.

These are writers, right? And Rickeys kind of an ******* and Mattinglys cool and media friendly? I'm wondering if a writer decided to vote for a Yankee, he's picking Mattingly, based on the HRs and RBI, good defense, but also because he's not an arrogant douche.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):
If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove and we know his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage and then you add the 80 stolen bases, what are we still arguing about?

Nobody is conceding that Henderson "brought more value with the glove".  He was a below average CF while Mattingly was a superb defensive 1B.

And some of us are disputing that "his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage".  That's very questionable.

Mike conceded that.

And it isn't questionable. 1 point of OBP is worth almost 2 points of slugging.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

LOL at tec bashing advanced stats all day yesterday and then using one to support his argument.

I've never bashed advanced stats.  They serve some usefulness when used as one of a number of pieces of supporting evidence in an argument.

Mostly, I mock BL's blind adherance to advanced stats to the exclusion of all other factors.  That's just plain retarded.

Should we look up the advanced defensive stats for Mattingly?

Sure.  Go right ahead.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:11:00 AM (view original):
And it isn't questionable. 1 point of OBP is worth almost 2 points of slugging.

Of course that's questionable, you moron.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 10:11:00 AM (view original):
Sure.  Go right ahead.

I will when I get to a computer. Are you going to accept them if they say Mattingly was average?

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 10:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:11:00 AM (view original):
And it isn't questionable. 1 point of OBP is worth almost 2 points of slugging.

Of course that's questionable, you moron.

Not really, it's been studied a lot.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):
If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove and we know his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage and then you add the 80 stolen bases, what are we still arguing about?

Nobody is conceding that Henderson "brought more value with the glove".  He was a below average CF while Mattingly was a superb defensive 1B.

And some of us are disputing that "his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage".  That's very questionable.

Mike conceded that.

Mike said "Rickey was probably slightly below average in CF and Mattingly was fantastic at 1B."

How is that "conceding" that "Henderson brought more value with the glove"?

Do you know how to read and comprehend the English language?

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 10:11:00 AM (view original):
Sure.  Go right ahead.

I will when I get to a computer. Are you going to accept them if they say Mattingly was average?

It depends on what you present and if it's put into the correct context.

In other words, I'm not going to blindly accept a few "cherry-picked" advanced stats like you prefer to do.

Make a comprehensive and convincing argument.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:58:00 AM (view original):

Rickey was probably slightly below average in CF and Mattingly was fantastic at 1B.  That said, Henderson likely still brought more value with the glove.   But stop with this "good/great CF" ****.   It doesn't apply to Rickey.   Rickey says **** the fielding ****, Rickey likes to run bases.

Some people should read before posting.   Then they wouldn't argue points that have already been conceded. 

For tec

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 10:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):
If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove and we know his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage and then you add the 80 stolen bases, what are we still arguing about?

Nobody is conceding that Henderson "brought more value with the glove".  He was a below average CF while Mattingly was a superb defensive 1B.

And some of us are disputing that "his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage".  That's very questionable.

Mike conceded that.

Mike said "Rickey was probably slightly below average in CF and Mattingly was fantastic at 1B."

How is that "conceding" that "Henderson brought more value with the glove"?

Do you know how to read and comprehend the English language?

You need to read mikes next sentence in that post, dumbshit.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:58:00 AM (view original):

Rickey was probably slightly below average in CF and Mattingly was fantastic at 1B.  That said, Henderson likely still brought more value with the glove.   But stop with this "good/great CF" ****.   It doesn't apply to Rickey.   Rickey says **** the fielding ****, Rickey likes to run bases.

Some people should read before posting.   Then they wouldn't argue points that have already been conceded. 

For tec

Whatever.

I disagree that "Henderson brought more value with the glove".  He was a below average CF.  All the numbers, as well as the general consensus at the time, affirm that.

You ******* dumb *****.

"Whatever."

How about, my bad, my dumb *** didn't read the very next ******* sentence before I opened my fat ******* pie hole.

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 10:02:00 AM (view original):
At the end of the day, I just think the 23-5-0 vote says more than the stats we look at 28 years later.  If it had been 15-7-6, you'd at least be able to argue that some of the voters saw then what your numbers are telling you now.   Then you could say "Yeah, they're dumbasses."   I just don't think 28 of them are all dumbasses who got it wrong.

These are writers, right? And Rickeys kind of an ******* and Mattinglys cool and media friendly? I'm wondering if a writer decided to vote for a Yankee, he's picking Mattingly, based on the HRs and RBI, good defense, but also because he's not an arrogant douche.

Would it be fair to say more than a few people think I'm an arrogant douche?   Do you think, if that was the consensus of WifS, that I'd be able to fill HBD worlds on the day of rollover?  

And that's not to say some, if not many, of the owners in said worlds don't think I'm an arrogant douche.  They just know I run good worlds.   Much like a writer who admittedly thought Rickey was an arrogant douche would still throw him a MVP votes because, get this, he was the best player.   Not even one did.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 10:25:00 AM (view original):
You ******* dumb *****.

"Whatever."

How about, my bad, my dumb *** didn't read the very next ******* sentence before I opened my fat ******* pie hole.

Did you say that when I'd already conceded that I felt Henderson brought more value on the field and you were still arguing it?

No?  Then why the **** would you expect tec to do it?