Ichiro = not a HOFer.

To say he's a first ballot lock is laughable.

If we both are still around when it comes time for him to get voted on I will bet you any amount of money that he's first ballot. Until then the point is moot.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 7:05:00 AM (view original):
Rickey had a great year in '85.  Finished third in AL MVP voting.  Only two spots behind his teammate and the AL's best player that year, Don Mattingly.

To say that Rickey was better and "it wasn't even close" is something that only a complete moron would say.

Do you follow and understand the game of baseball?

I'd argue Rickey had the best year that year.  Put up similar offensive numbers to Mattingly (if you like ops, he was .005 behind), and also stole 80 bases and played a much more important defensive position.  I'd argue he was most valuable to the Yankees that year.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/23/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
Mattingly, at his peak, best player in baseball.

Raines, at his peak, standing on 2nd hoping somebody gets a hit.

This is the problem with Mattingly. He had a 4 year peak.  After that peak, he's a .292/.347/.424 hitter.  And yes, I understand he added value defensively.  But Raines is much more worthy of the HOF.

One could also argue they'd prefer Raines' 4 year peak than Mattingly's 4 year peak.  .075 difference in OPS, which is fairly significant, but Raines is stealing 70 bases, and playing a more important defensive position.

Posted by skonley on 8/24/2013 9:36:00 AM (view original):
I think its funny how MikeTard has waffled on Ichiro being a HoFer. Just a few years ago (when Ichiro was still a Mariner) he wasn't Hall of Fame material, but now that he's a Yanker he is?

LOL.  I'm in somebody's head. 

And I'm glad you dug up the two year old thread to find out there was no waffling.  Dumbass.

Hold on there chief, while you may not have waffled on his HoF worthiness, you've switched from attacking Ichiro to defending him. Frickin' homer.

I've been having voices in my head for 2 months now. Is that you, Mikey? SHUT UP if it is!

Posted by skonley on 8/24/2013 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Hold on there chief, while you may not have waffled on his HoF worthiness, you've switched from attacking Ichiro to defending him. Frickin' homer.

Read back a few pages.   I said his numbers are borderline but he changed the perception of Japanese players.   That puts him in a HOF.  And I also mentioned that I'm not a fan and have never been a fan of Ichiro. 

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 7:05:00 AM (view original):
Rickey had a great year in '85.  Finished third in AL MVP voting.  Only two spots behind his teammate and the AL's best player that year, Don Mattingly.

To say that Rickey was better and "it wasn't even close" is something that only a complete moron would say.

Do you follow and understand the game of baseball?

In 1985 Rickey hit:

.314/.419/.516
24 HR
80 SB
157 OPS+
9.9 WAR

In 1985 Mattingly hit:

.324/.371/.567
35 HR
2 SB
156 OPS+
6.4 WAR

That's not really very close. Rickey was better. 50 points of OBP is worth 100 points of SLG and then you add in the 80 stolen bases and the additional defensive value and it's easy to see that the voters got it wrong.

How is that not close? Mattingly also played 16 more games.

It's not close (in BL's simple mind) because he believes baseball can be purely evaluated by the selected numbers of his choice on a stat sheet.

I don't think he's ever played or watched an actual game.

I'm pretty sure he did not watch baseball in the 1985 season.  If he did, he would not be undervaluing the awesomeness of Mattingly's MVP season.

Posted by stinenavy on 8/24/2013 7:38:00 PM (view original):
How is that not close? Mattingly also played 16 more games.

And, even with Mattingly's additional 16 games, Henderson was over 3 wins better.

Rickey, who I liked, wasn't really very good on D.  He preferred to "save his legs" for stealing. 

In '85, Mattingly was the best player.   There is no question.

85 wasn't even Mattingly's best season. Henderson was more valuable in 85.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 8:14:00 PM (view original):
85 wasn't even Mattingly's best season. Henderson was more valuable in 85.

Did you watch baseball in 1985?