Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:28:00 AM (view original):
The fielding percentage isn't very far off from average, but being replaced 18 times is telling.  I suppose that's fair.  That said, he did reach a ton of fly balls.  Were Yankee pitchers in the mid 80s fly ball pitchers typically?

The best info I can find at baseball-reference.com is in team pitching stats, the "GO/AO" ratio (ground outs to air outs ratio).

The Yankees had the second lowest GO/AO ratio in the AL in 1985, at 0.87.  Only Oakland was worse at 0.85.

The next lowest teams were Cleveland and Milwaukee at 0.97.

So, yes.  The 1985 Yankee pitching staff was very much a fly ball staff, by a pretty wide margin over the rest of the league (except for the A's).

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:58:00 AM (view original):

Rickey was probably slightly below average in CF and Mattingly was fantastic at 1B.  That said, Henderson likely still brought more value with the glove.   But stop with this "good/great CF" ****.   It doesn't apply to Rickey.   Rickey says **** the fielding ****, Rickey likes to run bases.

Some people should read before posting.   Then they wouldn't argue points that have already been conceded. 

If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove and we know his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage and then you add the 80 stolen bases, what are we still arguing about?

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 9:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:43:00 PM (view original):
Henderson had a weak arm and didn't really take good angles in CF.   He was fast.   I can't recall his "read" on balls but he could have been a lot better at getting to balls in the gap.  However, he didn't like CF because it tired his legs.   Rickey says Rickey wants to steal not chase down fly balls.

I thought I resolved this "Good/great CF" nonsense yesterday. 

You claiming he wasn't a good CF doesn't mean he wasn't a good CF.  It appears he had great range based on the amount of balls he got to, so give something else to refute that.

9 errors, .980 fielding percentage and being replaced in CF over 13% of the time.   Unless, of course, you're going to argue that he was being PH for those 18 times.

Even if he was a bad CF, he still had more glove value than a great 1B.

This is an easy choice, Hendrson was more valuable.

If Mattingly was fantastic at 1B (he was, even from what I saw from his later years) and Henderson was below-average in center, it makes the margin narrower.  I was under the impression for whatever reason that he was very good in the field (fast = good?).  

What's also interesting is that McGee won the MVP in the NL that same year.  My argument of "the voters looked at triple crown numbers" gets beat up somewhat when he put up 10 homers and 82 RBI.  They could have voted Dave Parker, but didn't.

All that said...I'm taking the CFer here.  He's more valuable to the team.  You can probably find a 1B with some pop, it's going to be very hard to find a CFer to do anything close to what Rickey did offensively and with his legs.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):
If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove and we know his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage and then you add the 80 stolen bases, what are we still arguing about?

Nobody is conceding that Henderson "brought more value with the glove".  He was a below average CF while Mattingly was a superb defensive 1B.

And some of us are disputing that "his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage".  That's very questionable.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

LOL at tec bashing advanced stats all day yesterday and then using one to support his argument.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):
If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove and we know his advantage in OBP more than wipes out Mattingly's slugging advantage and then you add the 80 stolen bases, what are we still arguing about?

I don't think we've agree on anything beyond "If you concede that Henderson brought more value with the glove".   You repeating yourself and me(or anyone not bothering to respond for the 70th time) doesn't imply agreement.

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

LOL at tec bashing advanced stats all day yesterday and then using one to support his argument.

Isn't that what's advanced stats are for?

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

LOL at tec bashing advanced stats all day yesterday and then using one to support his argument.

Isn't that what's advanced stats are for?

Ha. Sure.

Yea, if tec looked up the number and saw it was above average, you know he'd think "**** these stats, they're wrong. Watch the games."

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

LOL at tec bashing advanced stats all day yesterday and then using one to support his argument.

I've never bashed advanced stats.  They serve some usefulness when used as one of a number of pieces of supporting evidence in an argument.

Mostly, I mock BL's blind adherance to advanced stats to the exclusion of all other factors.  That's just plain retarded.

At the end of the day, I just think the 23-5-0 vote says more than the stats we look at 28 years later.  If it had been 15-7-6, you'd at least be able to argue that some of the voters saw then what your numbers are telling you now.   Then you could say "Yeah, they're dumbasses."   I just don't think 28 of them are all dumbasses who got it wrong.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 4:59:00 PM (view original):
Since I actually watch and understand baseball, I don't find that interesting either.

Baseball is much more than stats and "magic" formulas that are made up by nerds with slide rules.

If you've ever watched a game and understood it, you might get that.

Comments like this make me think you'd ignore this particular stat you're bringing up.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.

He also had a Damon-like arm.   Not sure we'll find any stats to back that up but, if you google Rickey Henderson and check enough articles, it can be confirmed.

Advanced fielding stats for Rickey at b-r.com indicate that he had a below-average arm for CF, with an Rof value of -2.

Rof -- Total Zone Outfield Arm Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on baserunner kills and baserunner advances.

LOL at tec bashing advanced stats all day yesterday and then using one to support his argument.

I've never bashed advanced stats.  They serve some usefulness when used as one of a number of pieces of supporting evidence in an argument.

Mostly, I mock BL's blind adherance to advanced stats to the exclusion of all other factors.  That's just plain retarded.

Should we look up the advanced defensive stats for Mattingly?