Question for the older guys... Topic

cbaltz_ca
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I often just throw teams together and see how they look in spring leagues and decide later if I want to play them full season.  I'm currently throwing together a crazy speed team now with no cookies.  I was 10 years old in 1974 and of course I remember Lou Brock, but not in detail.  Was looking at '74 Brock.  Can anybody explain to me how a guy who stole 118 bases had D+ range in the OF?????  Was he just completely clueless in the field? 
4/15/2011 2:05 PM
Bootone
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Completely!

Hands of stone... and couldn't judge a flyball to save his life. As a Cardinal fan, I thanked God everyday for Curt Flood and Bake McBride.
4/15/2011 2:12 PM
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dahsdebater
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I'm not old enough to have seen him, but his reputation was as a very poor field for someone with his skills.  Also worth pointing out that there are some players who are good defenders who do not have excellent range.  This is the inevitable result of the impact of pitching on range.  If you play on a team with a preponderance of groundball pitches - which sorts of staffs have been put together at various times in history - the range of the outfielders will suffer.  If you have more flyball pitchers the infielders' range will suffer.  If you have an above-average strikeout staff everybody's range suffers with respect to their counterparts on a team with a low-K pitching staff.  The reality is that in most cases range is only very loosely tied to actual talent.  Does Jeter's range suffer because he can't move to his left to save his life?  Of course.  But ultimately you need to get 27 outs to end a game (unless you get beat up on as a road team, then you only need 24).  So if you take a team of all great fielders and a team of all terrible fielders and give them pitchings staffs that strike out the same number of guys, the total ranges of the teams will end up looking similar.  Sure, the bad defense will allow a few more hits which will allow a few more guys to come to bat and perhaps there will be a few more Ks.  But the sum range for the team will be CLOSE to the same in spite of the fact that one defense is good and one is bad.
4/15/2011 5:53 PM
Bootone
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Since I was a Brock fan... I would put him in left over Luzinski and Kingman! It's not like he didn't try!

4/15/2011 7:58 PM
bklynborn
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the only thing worse than Kingman in the outfield, was Kingman at third!!
4/15/2011 8:04 PM
cbaltz_ca
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Wasn't it Kingman who made something like 60+ errors at 3B in the minors for SF?
4/15/2011 9:36 PM
cbaltz_ca
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And on a side note what the H.E. double toothpicks happened to Ron Leflore in 1980?  in 1979 in Det he was A-/A-.  1980 in Montreal D/D+.  I know he didn't break a leg he had 97 steals!!! 
4/15/2011 9:43 PM
bklynborn
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Tiger Stadium v. Olympic Stadium, I'd guess
 

4/16/2011 4:15 PM
contrarian23
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Might also have something to do with the fact that he played CF for Detroit and LF for Montreal (Dawson played CF).  As far as I know, WIS does not differentiate for this when assigning range grades.
4/16/2011 6:30 PM
zubinsum
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Posted by dahsdebater on 4/15/2011 5:53:00 PM (view original):
I'm not old enough to have seen him, but his reputation was as a very poor field for someone with his skills.  Also worth pointing out that there are some players who are good defenders who do not have excellent range.  This is the inevitable result of the impact of pitching on range.  If you play on a team with a preponderance of groundball pitches - which sorts of staffs have been put together at various times in history - the range of the outfielders will suffer.  If you have more flyball pitchers the infielders' range will suffer.  If you have an above-average strikeout staff everybody's range suffers with respect to their counterparts on a team with a low-K pitching staff.  The reality is that in most cases range is only very loosely tied to actual talent.  Does Jeter's range suffer because he can't move to his left to save his life?  Of course.  But ultimately you need to get 27 outs to end a game (unless you get beat up on as a road team, then you only need 24).  So if you take a team of all great fielders and a team of all terrible fielders and give them pitchings staffs that strike out the same number of guys, the total ranges of the teams will end up looking similar.  Sure, the bad defense will allow a few more hits which will allow a few more guys to come to bat and perhaps there will be a few more Ks.  But the sum range for the team will be CLOSE to the same in spite of the fact that one defense is good and one is bad.
Case in point, '05 Eckstein is an A+ range shortstop.  In fairness, the guy was great fun to watch and he hustled on every play.  However he had only average range at SS.  If he was in the database as a B-, that would be generous.   
4/17/2011 1:13 PM
crazystengel
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Range factor in baseball is sort of like the +/- stat in hockey, in that a lot depends on circumstances beyond the player's control. 
4/17/2011 1:18 PM
pfattkatt
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I remember Mr. Brock very well, and he was, indeed, a very poor judge of airborne objects that flew in his direction. After the object fell to Earth, he was even worse.
4/17/2011 1:40 PM
knutson
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You hit on one of the reasons why the Cubs traded Brock June of 1964. He was a bad OF and plus playing right field at Wrigley did not help. Real bad sun during day games and can be windy at times. Just ask any Cub who has played there and had a good glove. Dawson would back that up. Plus Brock struck out alot for a guy at the top of the order. My father remembers him as a Cub . I was too young (born 1968) but I do remember Brock getting his 3,000 hit at Wrigley against the Cubs to put the final nail in the coffin. Long live Ernie Brogilo!!!!! P.S Sandberg makes up for it. Sort of.

4/17/2011 3:40 PM
zubinsum
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A lot of saberticians don't think Brock was a great player...  while he did steal a lot of bases, his SB% doesn't place he with the elite.  He got 3000 hits but much of that was because he didn't walk much and, as discussed, he was a poor defender.
4/17/2011 3:47 PM
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