Stop Post-Demotion Traumatic Stress Syndrome Topic

ranger717
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/1/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ranger717 on 6/1/2012 1:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/1/2012 1:44:00 PM (view original):
An example:
Bottom of BL staff:
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Billy Arnold
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Oleg Duncan
Top of AAA staff:
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Carlos Abreu
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Tom Frye

They look pretty interchangeable to me.   Without demotion penalties, I don't hesitate to bounce all 4 between BL and AAA.
Okay.  So what's the problem with that?  Everyone else can do the same thing.  These are not game changers we are dealing with here.
If rosters were 40 every day, everyone would be able to do that, right?   You thought that was crazytalk.

I don't understand your rebuttal here.   I guess you posted those players to prove that it would be possible to move 2 or 3 players back and forth.    I'm not sure why you felt the need to prove that, as that was never a point of contention.   I'm saying that its okay to be able to do that, they aren't going to be very good players (which you have demonstrated), and since they are all deep bullpen guys you will very rarely have the need to do so, or derive any competitve advantage from doing so.

Now, if you have a great pitcher in AAA that you want to move back and forth, then great, go for it.   Personally if they were that good they would already be in the majors, but if you for some reason have a pitcher in AAA that is actually better than one in your ML staff, then by all means, move him back and forth.  If he is that good, then he is either:  a) expensive...a resource allocation decision with costs and benefits, or b) someone you have developed that will eventually be a regular MLer anyway, and you have choosen to start his clock yet still only utilize him part time.
 

6/1/2012 2:14 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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Your entire argument goes back to what I stated after your first post.    Fatigue becomes an issue at some point in the season for pretty much everyone.  Not in the beginning, which is why no one would start with 40, but eventually.   By allowing the back and forth with no penalty, fatigue is no longer an issue.   Your suggestion eliminates fatigue from the game.   If you're going to eliminate fatigue, why bother with DUR/STM ratings?

6/1/2012 2:32 PM
ranger717
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If you chose to remove a fatigued ML starter with replace him with a fresh AAA player for any amount of time, the cost you are incurring is decreased production from that position.  The benefit would be a recovery of the original ML starters fatigue.  There is a benefit and a cost.  You are only looking at the benefit and not the cost.  Fatigue would still be a factor.
6/1/2012 2:34 PM
MikeT23
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First example used:  Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Juan Ferrer

Considerably more valuable due to the game change.
6/1/2012 2:50 PM
tufft
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HBD is supposed to be a MLB simulation.

Certain allowances have been made because the realities of the game. In HBD every team has the same budget to start the season. There is no penalty for losing in HBD.  Attendance doesn't go down.  Owner can't fire you for sucking.  GMs can quit one team & pick up another team at any time, leaving chaos behind & no penalty stepping into the new team.  So some rules need MLB rules need to be adjusted.

The current HBD system supports a certain strategy.  Plan your 25-man roster to last 140 games (until roster expansion).  The MLB system supports a different strategy. It values depth & situational tactics. People can probably debate forever which is better.  IMO, that means since HBD is an MLB simulation, the game should change to be more like MLB.  (Mike disagrees. I don't expect anyone will change his mind.)

In MLB, players come up & down from the MinL all season long. Look at the real-world data. The average ML team has a lot more players appear in games than the average HBD team.

Rotating the 23-25 men throughout the season is a common practice in MLB. No data supports that hurts a player's physical skills.

In MLB, demoting a player does not cause that player to run slower, or loose power, or hit LHP worse.  It might actually motivate him to work harder on his game. So a demotion bonus is possible in MLB.

The current way the demotion penalty works in HBD is not a realistic simulation. IMO, it's silly.

Just like in MLB, there should be some limits on promotions & demotions in HBD.

Some more realistic MLB example that could be programmed into HBD include:

There should be a minimum number of days at a level before a player can be moved again.

Players who are bounced up & down too many times should refuse to resign with that team.   Easy enough to have some MinL players refuse to resign, just like some ML players do.  Same for 6 yr FAs.

Players that see their teammates being bounced up & down should frequently refuse to resign with that team. A FA negotiation message like, "I don't like the way you treat players around here. I'm going to see what I can get on the open market. Talk to me then."  Easy enough to change the program so you can't always sign a last year arb player to a long-term contract and to modify the "I won't sign" logic for older FAs.

Repeated promotion / demotion could result in a ratings hit.  Never just 1 or 2 demotions.

Tie demotion penalty to performance.  Player is hitting .350 when he's demoted, he believes he belongs at that level & gets a ratings hit.  Hitting .200, no penalty.  He hasn't proved he belongs.

Rating hits could only apply while that player was on that team.  Change teams & the ratings are restored.  (Probably hard to programming into the current game, so this is probably not worth the effort.)

Any of these are better than the way it works now.  I'm sure there are a lot of other better systems. When/if HBD is spun off, maybe some improvements will be made.
6/1/2012 3:02 PM
ranger717
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Yes. That is a player that you should be able to get as much as possible out of at the ML level. It's criminal that you are forced to keep him at AAA. And if he went to FA he should get all the money he is worth. You have proven my point.
6/1/2012 3:03 PM
MikeT23
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It's part of the decision-making process that you seem to be against.  I COULD put him on my BL roster and adjust the way my team is built.  In fact, now that he's out of options, I intend to do just that.   However, while he had options, I used him in the manner I best saw fit.   Roster call-up, playoff roster. 

Make decisions is what this game is all about.    You can't pick up the bat and hit the fake ball, all you do is make decisions.
6/1/2012 3:06 PM
MikeT23
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tuft, you can call up and send down players all you want.   If that 1-2 point ratings hit deters you from doing it, I'd argue that you're moving 2nd/3rd tier BL players anyway.  

So what's your point?
6/1/2012 3:08 PM
ranger717
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Mike, your last two posts seem to contradict each other.  Above you told tuft that only 2nd and 3rd tier playes are affected anyway.  The post above that you showed a player with top tier ML hitting abiity that you did not move back and forth apparently in fear of a demotion penalty.    I'm having a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make at this point, and at this point I'm wondering if you have a clear point.   I have made numerous counter arguement to each of your arguments, very few of which you successfully rebutted.

Also, you have completely mischaracterized my position.  I am not against decision making, I am for it.  Removing demotion penalties would change the character of the decision points you would have to consider, but would not change the amount of decisions you would have to make.
6/1/2012 3:46 PM
MikeT23
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Not really.  I didn't bounce Ferrer back and forth BECAUSE of the possible demotion hits.   I was forced to decide how to use him.   But, had I chosen to, I could have demoted/promoted at will.    I felt he was more valuable than that.

You really haven't made a successful counter argument to anything.   I haven't even tried to offer a rebuttal.  I've simply repeated the same point over and over again because you seem to miss it.  I'll repeat it with a little extra added in so it will stand out.    

Allowing owners to freely promote/demote anyone on the 40 with no penalty removes fatigue as a factor in this game. 
6/1/2012 4:09 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/1/2012 10:07:00 AM (view original):
Short version:  Right now, owners are required to make decisions based on 25 man rosters.   They have to include talent, budget constraints, demotion penalties and fatigue.     Remove the demotion penalty and the only decisions are talent and budget constraints as anyone on the 40 can now be called up based on those two factors.     Two less factors in the decision-making process.    That's dumbing down in my book. 

This

6/1/2012 4:10 PM
ranger717
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Posted by ranger717 on 6/1/2012 2:34:00 PM (view original):
If you chose to remove a fatigued ML starter with replace him with a fresh AAA player for any amount of time, the cost you are incurring is decreased production from that position.  The benefit would be a recovery of the original ML starters fatigue.  There is a benefit and a cost.  You are only looking at the benefit and not the cost.  Fatigue would still be a factor.

This.

6/1/2012 4:13 PM
ranger717
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/1/2012 4:09:00 PM (view original):
Not really.  I didn't bounce Ferrer back and forth BECAUSE of the possible demotion hits.   I was forced to decide how to use him.   But, had I chosen to, I could have demoted/promoted at will.    I felt he was more valuable than that.

You really haven't made a successful counter argument to anything.   I haven't even tried to offer a rebuttal.  I've simply repeated the same point over and over again because you seem to miss it.  I'll repeat it with a little extra added in so it will stand out.    

Allowing owners to freely promote/demote anyone on the 40 with no penalty removes fatigue as a factor in this game. 
Your underlined sentence above is 100% wrong.   Underlining it and bolding it doesn't change that fact.  Anytime you bench a player for fatigue reasons you are taking his production out of the game.  It doesn't matter if you are replacing him with a backup already on your ML roster, or someone you just called up from AAA.    If your ML starter has become fatigued and must rest, and you replace him in the line up, you have lost his production until he recovers, regardless of who you replaced him with. 
6/1/2012 4:17 PM
MikeT23
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Do you think all players/pitchers fatigue equally?

6/1/2012 4:22 PM
MikeT23
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Do you think that LH/RH makes any difference in this game?
6/1/2012 4:22 PM
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