Broncos - Ware's the defense? Topic

Posted by slashtc on 1/15/2012 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by augie_ojeda on 1/14/2012 11:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by slashtc on 1/14/2012 11:24:00 PM (view original):
Leave it to you to once again, pick one meaningless point and pick at that while ignoring every other word that essentially proves you are the idiot.  That probably worked for a few years, but not so much any more.   
the one meaningless point that you weren't watching the game about which you posted your opinions?
One point that I didn't see all of the game.  He looked bad from what I saw.  The stats say he looked bad the rest of the game.  But you guys all know that, you just don't like being wrong.
Which two plays did you see?
1/15/2012 1:10 PM
I'm guessing he just happened to wander into the room when Tebow was getting stripped, and another time when he threw an incompletion.
1/15/2012 1:36 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
First 16 NFL starts:

Young: 2,722 yards, 9 TDs, 16 interceptions, 5 rushing TDs.

Tebow: 2,835 yards, 19 TDs, 9 interceptions, 12 rushing TDs. 

After two seasons (19 starts) in TB, Young was traded to SF, where he was a backup for 4 years. He didn't become a starter till he was 30 and is now a hall of famer. He was very similar to Tebow in terms of skill set, passing abilitiy and doubters when he came into the league and improved drastically over time.

Will Tebow be Steve Young? Who knows. But Young alone is evidence that assuming Tebow can't improve or amount to anything is ignorant and foolish.
Quite the flawed argument.

For one, your stats point a rosier picture on Tebow since you're including games in which he did not start. He has 7 TD's from games where he came in as a sub and those appear to be present in your stats.

I'm not sure how you account for "number of doubters". TB in the '80s was like a death sentence for your career, Walsh stepped in and saved him.

Tim Tebow is no Steve Young, to say that he can be like him is ignorant and foolish.
1/15/2012 1:57 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's passing accuracy sucks. It's unlikely to get much better. Sure, he may get better at reading defenses and making decisions....but he's never going to be one of those guys that can hit his targets consistently and that will severely limit his potential.
It's been noted dozens of times that young QBs usually improve their accuracy as they get experience.    Of course, I guess Tebow is different.
You're confusing completion percentage with actual accuracy.

Some QBs just can't make the ball go where they want it.
1/15/2012 2:29 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 1/15/2012 1:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
First 16 NFL starts:

Young: 2,722 yards, 9 TDs, 16 interceptions, 5 rushing TDs.

Tebow: 2,835 yards, 19 TDs, 9 interceptions, 12 rushing TDs. 

After two seasons (19 starts) in TB, Young was traded to SF, where he was a backup for 4 years. He didn't become a starter till he was 30 and is now a hall of famer. He was very similar to Tebow in terms of skill set, passing abilitiy and doubters when he came into the league and improved drastically over time.

Will Tebow be Steve Young? Who knows. But Young alone is evidence that assuming Tebow can't improve or amount to anything is ignorant and foolish.
Quite the flawed argument.

For one, your stats point a rosier picture on Tebow since you're including games in which he did not start. He has 7 TD's from games where he came in as a sub and those appear to be present in your stats.

I'm not sure how you account for "number of doubters". TB in the '80s was like a death sentence for your career, Walsh stepped in and saved him.

Tim Tebow is no Steve Young, to say that he can be like him is ignorant and foolish.
You're right, my bad.  But your math is off - Tebow has had one passing TD and 3 rushing TDs in games he didn't start. So 18 passing TDs and 9 rushing TDs in his first 16 starts. Still ahead of Young - and Elway for that matter.

As for "Tim Tebow is no Steve Young"...I never said he was Steve Young. I said Young is evidence Tebow can easily improve his game. But don't forget - Steve Young was no Steve Young his first 6 years in the league either.


1/15/2012 2:44 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's passing accuracy sucks. It's unlikely to get much better. Sure, he may get better at reading defenses and making decisions....but he's never going to be one of those guys that can hit his targets consistently and that will severely limit his potential.
It's been noted dozens of times that young QBs usually improve their accuracy as they get experience.    Of course, I guess Tebow is different.
I also have room for improvement for my throwing accuracy, but that doesn't mean I should be QB'ing an NFL team.
1/15/2012 3:02 PM
He had a passing and rushing TD in the first SD game. My mistake, 6 instead of 7. So a total of 17 passing TD and 8 rushing in 16 starts.

It makes you look foolish to keep looking for the absolute best case scenarios and be like "SEE ELWAY AND YOUNG SUCKED TOO WHY CAN'T TEBOW BE JUST LIKE THEM!?!?!?

Being realistic, I think a better comparison may be Kordell Stewart, but Tebow has a ways to go to be as good as a passer.
1/15/2012 3:33 PM
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 2:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's passing accuracy sucks. It's unlikely to get much better. Sure, he may get better at reading defenses and making decisions....but he's never going to be one of those guys that can hit his targets consistently and that will severely limit his potential.
It's been noted dozens of times that young QBs usually improve their accuracy as they get experience.    Of course, I guess Tebow is different.
You're confusing completion percentage with actual accuracy.

Some QBs just can't make the ball go where they want it.
So a guy who completed 2/3 of his college passes can't throw the ball where he wants to?   Seems a bit odd to suggest that.
1/15/2012 3:49 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 1/15/2012 3:33:00 PM (view original):
He had a passing and rushing TD in the first SD game. My mistake, 6 instead of 7. So a total of 17 passing TD and 8 rushing in 16 starts.

It makes you look foolish to keep looking for the absolute best case scenarios and be like "SEE ELWAY AND YOUNG SUCKED TOO WHY CAN'T TEBOW BE JUST LIKE THEM!?!?!?

Being realistic, I think a better comparison may be Kordell Stewart, but Tebow has a ways to go to be as good as a passer.
How am I looking for the best case scenario.

You're saying "Tebow will NEVER get better"...I'm saying "Tebow CAN get better, and here's evidence."  I'm not guaranteeing anything - you are. Do you see the difference?
1/15/2012 3:58 PM
McNabb might be a good comparison.   Even in his 10th season, he'd bounce passes to receivers standing 10 yards away.   Started at 49% and seemed to plateau between 57-59%.

Eli Manning is another who throws passes that make you go "WTF?"  He started at 48%.  52%, 57% and 56% his next three seasons.    Looks like he's found an area in the 60s now. 
1/15/2012 4:03 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 1/15/2012 3:33:00 PM (view original):
He had a passing and rushing TD in the first SD game. My mistake, 6 instead of 7. So a total of 17 passing TD and 8 rushing in 16 starts.

It makes you look foolish to keep looking for the absolute best case scenarios and be like "SEE ELWAY AND YOUNG SUCKED TOO WHY CAN'T TEBOW BE JUST LIKE THEM!?!?!?

Being realistic, I think a better comparison may be Kordell Stewart, but Tebow has a ways to go to be as good as a passer.
Stewart is actually is a decent comparison but Tebow will make to make some significant progress if he's going to rival Stewart's threat with his arm. He's still way too inconsistent.
1/15/2012 4:08 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 3:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 2:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's passing accuracy sucks. It's unlikely to get much better. Sure, he may get better at reading defenses and making decisions....but he's never going to be one of those guys that can hit his targets consistently and that will severely limit his potential.
It's been noted dozens of times that young QBs usually improve their accuracy as they get experience.    Of course, I guess Tebow is different.
You're confusing completion percentage with actual accuracy.

Some QBs just can't make the ball go where they want it.
So a guy who completed 2/3 of his college passes can't throw the ball where he wants to?   Seems a bit odd to suggest that.
NCAA stats aren't really all that relevant going against NFL defenders. I suspect you might know this. It strikes me as a rather lame attempt to sidetrack the discussion. You've proven to be quite at expert at that, certainly more so than football. 

Are you like this in the baseball threads, too? It's amazing how little can be said in so many posts.
1/15/2012 4:12 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 1/15/2012 3:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by stinenavy on 1/15/2012 3:33:00 PM (view original):
He had a passing and rushing TD in the first SD game. My mistake, 6 instead of 7. So a total of 17 passing TD and 8 rushing in 16 starts.

It makes you look foolish to keep looking for the absolute best case scenarios and be like "SEE ELWAY AND YOUNG SUCKED TOO WHY CAN'T TEBOW BE JUST LIKE THEM!?!?!?

Being realistic, I think a better comparison may be Kordell Stewart, but Tebow has a ways to go to be as good as a passer.
How am I looking for the best case scenario.

You're saying "Tebow will NEVER get better"...I'm saying "Tebow CAN get better, and here's evidence."  I'm not guaranteeing anything - you are. Do you see the difference?
He can also get worse, something experienced by Josh Freeman in Tampa Bay. But I'm sure if Tebow regresses, it will be blamed on the Broncos offensive linemen, his receivers, Fox's playcalling, blah, blah. blah.

It will be interesting to see how he copes against a regular season schedule befitting a division champion. The Broncos got the **** kicked out of them every time they played a playoff-calibre team in the regular season.
1/15/2012 4:16 PM
Last 10 seasons, last in NFL (among qualifiers) in Comp %

2002 Joey Harrington 50.1%
2003 Kordell Stewart 50.2%
2004 Mark Brunell 49.8%
2005 J.P. Losman 49.6%
2006 Vince Young 51.5%
2007 Kellen Clemens 52.0%
2008 Derek Anderson 50.2%
2009 JaMarcus Russell 48.8%
2010 Derek Anderson 51.7%
2011 Tim Tebow 46.5%
1/15/2012 4:23 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 3:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 2:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's passing accuracy sucks. It's unlikely to get much better. Sure, he may get better at reading defenses and making decisions....but he's never going to be one of those guys that can hit his targets consistently and that will severely limit his potential.
It's been noted dozens of times that young QBs usually improve their accuracy as they get experience.    Of course, I guess Tebow is different.
You're confusing completion percentage with actual accuracy.

Some QBs just can't make the ball go where they want it.
So a guy who completed 2/3 of his college passes can't throw the ball where he wants to?   Seems a bit odd to suggest that.
Only odd to someone who thinks accuracy is the only component of completion percentage.

Actually, the oddest thing is that there is someone suggesting that Tebow might be accurate.
1/15/2012 4:26 PM
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Broncos - Ware's the defense? Topic

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