Francona = scapegoat Topic

05nomar05
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Sox need more guys like Millar and Mueller back on the team.  Pedy isn't enough.  Hopefully, Gonzo can step up and be a leader....and not blame god for any more losses.
10/4/2011 10:46 AM
moosep
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Posted by 05nomar05 on 10/3/2011 8:39:00 AM (view original):
Lackey is why Tito got canned.  He has a ****-poor attitude.  Rolling his eyes and flailing his arms when a player makes a bad play while he's pitching.  Crying about text msg's.  Dude is a complete f*cking hack.  Trade him for a pack of skittles and a used condom. 
You are going to have trouble getting rid of him because of his contract.
10/4/2011 11:23 AM
Jtpsops
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After watching Moneyball, I think it's kind of funny. The Sox clearly had some good teams in the early 2000s, but look at some of the guys they won with in 2004: Millar, Mueller, Roberts, etc.  They played some small ball and used some of the Moneyball approach.  And it worked.

 

Then they started pouring out money on big (and bad?) contracts and turning into the Yankees - and they've gotten worse. Lackey was a horrendous signing to begin with, and now it's looking like the Crawford contract may bit them.  And we won't even get into Dice-K.

It's funny how when you get away from what's working in an attempt to show up someone else (ie: The Yankees) or do what works for them, you crash and burn.

10/4/2011 12:05 PM
05nomar05
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Posted by moosep on 10/4/2011 11:23:00 AM (view original):
Posted by 05nomar05 on 10/3/2011 8:39:00 AM (view original):
Lackey is why Tito got canned.  He has a ****-poor attitude.  Rolling his eyes and flailing his arms when a player makes a bad play while he's pitching.  Crying about text msg's.  Dude is a complete f*cking hack.  Trade him for a pack of skittles and a used condom. 
You are going to have trouble getting rid of him because of his contract.
i know.  Sox should eat half of it.
10/4/2011 12:13 PM
AlCheez
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I know when I think about small ball, I think of the 2004 Sox...   just because they executed once in the highest profile situation of the year doesn't make them a small ball team.
10/4/2011 12:21 PM
MikeT23
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Maybe the 'roids is why the won.    I know, when I think small ball, I think juiced up Manny and Big Papi.
10/4/2011 1:21 PM
MikeT23
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Even funnier, the small ball Sux led the AL in slugging by 14 points.  49 points over the league average. 
10/4/2011 1:33 PM
AlCheez
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They were also near the bottom of the league in steals and dead last in sac bunts.  They did have a really high number of sac flies, but I'm guessing those were more HR attempts than anything else.

That team led the world in just about every offensive category other than the "small ball" categories.
10/4/2011 1:36 PM
MikeT23
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Shocker that jtpops has no clue what he's talking about.
10/4/2011 1:40 PM
burnsy483
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Sox lost this year because they forgot how to pitch down the stretch.  Led the league in runs this year.

Managers get too much blame when they lose, and too much credit when they win.  This was not on Francona.
10/4/2011 1:43 PM
MikeT23
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It was on Francona because, evidently, he lost the clubhouse.    No matter that they're grown men who should have personal pride in doing their job(and the right thing), someone has to be in charge.   Evidently, Francona was not. 

But, as Fredi Gonzalez will attest to, it's a fine line.  Go too far and management fires you.  Don't go far enough and you're still gone.
10/4/2011 1:47 PM
burnsy483
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These are men playing a game.  The guy who writes the lineup card shouldn't dictate how you play.  I get it might be easier to play (again, PLAY) when you're enjoying yourself, but it shouldn't be on the manager.  The manager who was there when the team won 2 WS titles.
10/4/2011 2:04 PM
AlCheez
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In no circumstances should a player ever be able to point to a manager and blame him for not getting him to do his job to the best of his ability.  But, practically, teams and players have personalities.  The personality of the Sox obviously changed, and this team wasn't responding to the manager.  Realistically, what else can you do in that situation?

But the notion that the Sox killed themselves by spending and trying to "be like the Yankees" is silly.  The Sox had the 2nd highest payroll in baseball in '04.  Yeah, they've got a couple contracts that look pretty bad now, but they've got enough money that they can handle a couple of bad contracts.  They failed because, due either to injury or other reasons, guys that they had every valid reason to expect to perform, didn't.
 

10/4/2011 2:11 PM
tecwrg2
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I think jtpsops is confusing Moneyball and small ball. 

The Moneyball approach to in-game management eschews the stolen base and the sac bunt.  Both of which are essential elements of small ball. 

So you can't say that any team uses some of both . . . if they're using both, then you can't classify the team as either.
10/4/2011 2:25 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2011 2:04:00 PM (view original):
These are men playing a game.  The guy who writes the lineup card shouldn't dictate how you play.  I get it might be easier to play (again, PLAY) when you're enjoying yourself, but it shouldn't be on the manager.  The manager who was there when the team won 2 WS titles.
It's a job.   It's almost ridiculous to say "men playing a game".   While that's true, they're getting paid.   Therefore, it's a job.  I'm playing a game when I drag my old *** onto a softball field.

And, just like with any job, someone is in charge.   And that person "motivates" you when you can't or won't motivate yourself.   Francona's job was to get the players to behave professionally and do their best.   It doesn't sound like that's what they did.    If his "job" is to fill out a line-up card, Jimmy BloSox the 2nd grader, can do it.  Hell, Theo can run the names thru the "Optimum Line-up Maker" and let a lucky fan hand over the line-up card before each game.

I wouldn't say I was a big Torre fan but he did a fantastic "job" of deflecting George and keeping the players in line.   I think some of that came from within the clubhouse but it's silly to think a David Wells toed the line all the time because he was afraid Williams, Jeter or O'Neill would correct him. 
10/4/2011 2:40 PM
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