Posted by bfkfraser on 11/23/2011 2:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ermackey on 11/23/2011 2:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by norbert on 11/23/2011 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by norbert on 11/21/2011 5:28:00 PM (view original):
There has been nothing changed for DIA and DIAA recruiting.  However, we have found that some recruits get hit up a lot harder from a Sim AI school than others, so these will be more difficult to recruit against.  If you run up against one of these recruits, it will be tougher than what you might expect.  There's really no way to tell how much a Sim AI has recruited a player, but not all Sim AI recruiting is the same.

For some reason I keep getting credited for saying something has changed or "changed".  It hasn't.  The tougher Sim AI recruits have always been in there and we did not change that with the update.  So to be clear - nothing has changed with respect to DIA and DIAA recruiting.  If you are having a tougher time than normal than you are either hitting one of these recruits with more Sim AI recruiting on them than normal or you aren't comparing apples to apples.

This is the part were are keying on:  "However, we have found that some recruits get hit up a lot harder from a Sim AI school than others, so these will be more difficult to recruit against.  If you run up against one of these recruits, it will be tougher than what you might expect." Do disrespect intended. From my {and some other owners) perspective, this is "change" because I have never experienced players this hard to turn yellow. From your perspective, your did not "change" the code. But the two are not exclusive. We are seeing something new even if you didn't change anything with recruiting. Maybe it is the butterfly effect in the code. Maybe I lucked through 600 seasons and just ran into 3 of them coincidentally after the update. But what you say was always the case was not observed to the same degree by me prior to the update compared to now.

Several coaches have posted that the harder sim recruits had occurred before the update. 

And those are equally valid observations. There is a chance that I did not experience this until later. Like I said, I just experienced it and to a very high degree.

The harder sim recruits started when they extended the first cycle to be a full day.  That was when things changed, not just last week.

Posted by emw13 on 11/23/2011 2:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by damauler12 on 11/23/2011 1:26:00 PM (view original):
Recruiting is definitely broke. The guy who actually has access to the code and has reviewed it has stated not once, but twice for the class that it is indeed not broke. Norbert has given me no reason to believe he is a credible source and must be wrong.

Also...CV's sometimes get charged to you. If you have been playing for 6 years you should know they sometimes get charged to you.

And 21 AC Scouts at $270 is $3k...not $5760 dollars.

For the record...I am almost done recruiting in Hayes. I had 12 to fill and 9 of the guys I have signed were Sims who I didn't battle a human for. The other 2 I signed were smallish battles and I have 1 left who is a good battle...so not counting them.

I spent between $6326 and $14k on those 9 guys within my 360. (I got a QB outside my 360 for around 16k) I found recruiting to be unchanged at the D1a level.

I also sent no more than a single AC scout to any player...

However...I may have just got lucky with my experience and it's really hard to figure out who has the most credibility here. Maybe if norbert could tell us for a 3rd time that nothing was changed I could possibly then believe him...

Your math is off. (unless you were being sarcastic or you punched in a wrong number)

270 x 21= 5,670

No I am just dyslexic and typed $5760 instead of $5670...but unlike others...I can admit I was wrong!!!

You claimed it was $270*21 was $3k.  Either way, it seems resolved.

Filled 20 D-III scholarships by this stage last season, and I won't be able to fill 10 this season. Single Sims AIs bleeding me dry more than ever. Can't compete in my conference unless I fight for some carefully selected recruits. The post on this update indicated there would be some better balance in this area, but I'm not seeing it.

Posted by cydrych on 11/23/2011 3:27:00 PM (view original):
You claimed it was $270*21 was $3k.  Either way, it seems resolved.

Lol...u didn't get the sarcasm of my post. At one point ermackey claimed it cost 3k for his 21 AC scout trips...

Single SimAI recruits were definitely much harder than before at D-II.  It seems like triple-SimAI recruits might've been a shade easier.  Hard to say.

Posted by DKC on 11/23/2011 12:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/23/2011 6:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jtwhiz on 11/23/2011 6:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/22/2011 6:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jtwhiz on 11/22/2011 5:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/22/2011 5:53:00 PM (view original):
How is that different than 30 or 40 CVs.  Recruits are only allowed 5 total visits in real life, and only one visit to an individual school.

Our recruiting "items" are really just a way to spend effort.  There is NO WAY that a recruit could possibly do 40 CVs to one school.

I think it is silly to pick one thing and single that out as a problem while the other things we do are also very unrealistic.

Skipping is a form of running but I wouldn't try to skip my way through a marathon. Sending 71 AC scouts is ridiculous in a way that 30 CVs is not. You can't possibly send anything more potent than a CV, so you just have to spend on them. Sending 71 AC scouts when you have a half-dozen better recruiting actions is just half-assing it 71 times and hoping you get better luck next time.

OK ... and in HD you have to use 20-30 Scouting Visits to be able to pull down recruits from a higher level.  Several people (including ermackey) play more than one game here, and so they try things that work in other games to see if they work in this game.  Sometimes thinking outside the box has you do certain things that others don't do.  In HD, sending 30 (or sometimes more) scouting visits is what you need to do.

Or we can just attack people and call them stupid if they try sometime we don't agree with.

Oh Johnny I missed you. Remember all those times you were JConte's knight in shining armor? Good times.

Yes ... I actually think that one should be NICE to people on the internet that same as you would be in person ... I know, a strange concept.

You guys all probably go to church on Sunday and are nice and sweet and shacking everyone's hand, then hit the message boards and act like BTK !

You have a good point in saying people should be nice to others online. In that case, stick to that point.

Where you start to lose credibility is when you start arguing that sending that many scout trips is a strategy that considers merit. You are way too experienced to defend that. It makes me think you are arguing just for the sake of it. Thinking outside the box is commendable, but one needs to be ready to admit when something does not work or is a poor method instead of trying to save face (I am not talking about you). Act humble, and people are more likely to cut you slacks. Act out of pride, and one invites more grief.

BUT ... here is my question for you DKC.  Have you actually done a study where you used scouting trips to actually impart recruiting credit to see how much impact they have?  They DO have recruiting impact (as do letters and phone calls, etc.).  The recruiting impact is small ... but so is the cost. 

The real question is ... how many AC Scouting trips does it take to equal the same impact as one Campus Visit?

There is an answer, I just do not remember what it is.

I quite frequently used Scouting Trips to turn guys yellow or green who are undecided at the lower levels ... and I know (for example) that for a given team of above average prestige, 2 HC Scouts and 2 AC Scouts will turn an undecided guy Green.  I also know that 1 CV does the same.  If a recruit is 60 miles away, 2 HC scout and 2 AC scout cost 2*138 +2*244 = $764 ... one CV is  $808.  Now, a CV can be refused if that recruit is at the very top of your vision ... BUT ... the HC and AC scouts can not be refused and will work every time to turn the guy Green.  I have absolutely used this method at Div-III, and it absolutely works.

I did not try thos, but lets say I could get the same recruiting impact as one CV with 5 AC Scouts.  Again at 60 miles, 5 AC Scouts is 5*138=$690 and one CV is $808.  If i did that with 10 recruits, I saved 10(808-690)=$1180

Now, how about a longer distance ... 500 miles.  At 500 miles, a AC Scout costs $523 and a CV costs $1288.  It does not take a rocket scientist to see it is going to be much less cost effective to send 5 AC Scouts ... in fact it will be double the cost at that distance to use AC Scouts.  At 360 miles (a cost increase point), the cost would be $271 for an AC Scout and $1044 for a CV.  That would be 5x271=1355 for AC Scouts and $1044 for a CV.

So Based on this, I would say that up to 180 miles it might be cost effective to use AC Scouts instead of CVs ... between 180 and 360 it can be close to the same, but CVs become more cost effective ... and greater than 360 it costs way to much to useAC Scouts.

So, having looked at it, I would say it might have merit at less than 360 miles.

Oh, and one other thing.  You can send 7 at a time and they can't be refused, so that makes is easy to send 7.

Again ... I don't think I would ever use this at 1A, but it does merit a look to see if it would work.

I always wondered how many AC Phone calls it would take to turn a guy green.    "OK, OK, I'll sign with you, just quit calling at 3:00 AM!!!"

Posted by bhazlewood on 11/23/2011 7:24:00 PM (view original):
I always wondered how many AC Phone calls it would take to turn a guy green.    "OK, OK, I'll sign with you, just quit calling at 3:00 AM!!!"

No need to wonder any longer, just give the WIS Recruiting Guru, ermackey, a sitemail. I bet he could tell you....lol!

Once again, there are reports from multiple owners saying that recruiting against sims is harder after the update. I suggest this is given some attention.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/23/2011 7:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DKC on 11/23/2011 12:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/23/2011 6:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jtwhiz on 11/23/2011 6:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/22/2011 6:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jtwhiz on 11/22/2011 5:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/22/2011 5:53:00 PM (view original):
How is that different than 30 or 40 CVs.  Recruits are only allowed 5 total visits in real life, and only one visit to an individual school.

Our recruiting "items" are really just a way to spend effort.  There is NO WAY that a recruit could possibly do 40 CVs to one school.

I think it is silly to pick one thing and single that out as a problem while the other things we do are also very unrealistic.

Skipping is a form of running but I wouldn't try to skip my way through a marathon. Sending 71 AC scouts is ridiculous in a way that 30 CVs is not. You can't possibly send anything more potent than a CV, so you just have to spend on them. Sending 71 AC scouts when you have a half-dozen better recruiting actions is just half-assing it 71 times and hoping you get better luck next time.

OK ... and in HD you have to use 20-30 Scouting Visits to be able to pull down recruits from a higher level.  Several people (including ermackey) play more than one game here, and so they try things that work in other games to see if they work in this game.  Sometimes thinking outside the box has you do certain things that others don't do.  In HD, sending 30 (or sometimes more) scouting visits is what you need to do.

Or we can just attack people and call them stupid if they try sometime we don't agree with.

Oh Johnny I missed you. Remember all those times you were JConte's knight in shining armor? Good times.

Yes ... I actually think that one should be NICE to people on the internet that same as you would be in person ... I know, a strange concept.

You guys all probably go to church on Sunday and are nice and sweet and shacking everyone's hand, then hit the message boards and act like BTK !

You have a good point in saying people should be nice to others online. In that case, stick to that point.

Where you start to lose credibility is when you start arguing that sending that many scout trips is a strategy that considers merit. You are way too experienced to defend that. It makes me think you are arguing just for the sake of it. Thinking outside the box is commendable, but one needs to be ready to admit when something does not work or is a poor method instead of trying to save face (I am not talking about you). Act humble, and people are more likely to cut you slacks. Act out of pride, and one invites more grief.

BUT ... here is my question for you DKC.  Have you actually done a study where you used scouting trips to actually impart recruiting credit to see how much impact they have?  They DO have recruiting impact (as do letters and phone calls, etc.).  The recruiting impact is small ... but so is the cost. 

The real question is ... how many AC Scouting trips does it take to equal the same impact as one Campus Visit?

There is an answer, I just do not remember what it is.

I quite frequently used Scouting Trips to turn guys yellow or green who are undecided at the lower levels ... and I know (for example) that for a given team of above average prestige, 2 HC Scouts and 2 AC Scouts will turn an undecided guy Green.  I also know that 1 CV does the same.  If a recruit is 60 miles away, 2 HC scout and 2 AC scout cost 2*138 +2*244 = $764 ... one CV is  $808.  Now, a CV can be refused if that recruit is at the very top of your vision ... BUT ... the HC and AC scouts can not be refused and will work every time to turn the guy Green.  I have absolutely used this method at Div-III, and it absolutely works.

I did not try thos, but lets say I could get the same recruiting impact as one CV with 5 AC Scouts.  Again at 60 miles, 5 AC Scouts is 5*138=$690 and one CV is $808.  If i did that with 10 recruits, I saved 10(808-690)=$1180

Now, how about a longer distance ... 500 miles.  At 500 miles, a AC Scout costs $523 and a CV costs $1288.  It does not take a rocket scientist to see it is going to be much less cost effective to send 5 AC Scouts ... in fact it will be double the cost at that distance to use AC Scouts.  At 360 miles (a cost increase point), the cost would be $271 for an AC Scout and $1044 for a CV.  That would be 5x271=1355 for AC Scouts and $1044 for a CV.

So Based on this, I would say that up to 180 miles it might be cost effective to use AC Scouts instead of CVs ... between 180 and 360 it can be close to the same, but CVs become more cost effective ... and greater than 360 it costs way to much to useAC Scouts.

So, having looked at it, I would say it might have merit at less than 360 miles.

Oh, and one other thing.  You can send 7 at a time and they can't be refused, so that makes is easy to send 7.

Again ... I don't think I would ever use this at 1A, but it does merit a look to see if it would work.

sorry, but I don't play lower than DIA unless it is to race towards DIA.  Your topic is relevant only towards undecided, which is not something I am heavily involved with anyways.  I also know that 71 scouting trips is not the way to go nor does the method merit any consideration when going after recruits already considering sims.  That's all I'm saying.  

to each his own.  

Posted by ermackey on 11/23/2011 10:59:00 PM (view original):
Once again, there are reports from multiple owners saying that recruiting against sims is harder after the update. I suggest this is given some attention.

we've already given way too much attention to this topic.  We've already established that technically nothing was changed at the DIA level recruiting, that some sims have always hung on to recruits more tightly.  That's it, end of story.  Just because you happen to subjectively think it is harder to knock off sims does not make it objectively so, nor does it merit any further attention.  

Posted by DKC on 11/24/2011 1:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ermackey on 11/23/2011 10:59:00 PM (view original):
Once again, there are reports from multiple owners saying that recruiting against sims is harder after the update. I suggest this is given some attention.

we've already given way too much attention to this topic.  We've already established that technically nothing was changed at the DIA level recruiting, that some sims have always hung on to recruits more tightly.  That's it, end of story.  Just because you happen to subjectively think it is harder to knock off sims does not make it objectively so, nor does it merit any further attention.  

And there is the conflict. You have your subjective perspective and I have mine. Neither side has "established" anything other than this is the first time some of us have experienced the phenomenon.  What you call my subjectivity, I call your denial.

DKC Said: (trying a quote to make this thread a bit smaller).
sorry, but I don't play lower than DIA unless it is to race towards DIA.  Your topic is relevant only towards undecided, which is not something I am heavily involved with anyways.  I also know that 71 scouting trips is not the way to go nor does the method merit any consideration when going after recruits already considering sims.  That's all I'm saying.  

to each his own.

Yes, my direct experience with what I tried was only applicable to undecided recruits.  But it also shows that "5 AC Scouts = 1 CV" in terms of recruiting power.

Recruiting impact is completely linear in this game, 10 CVs is exactly 10 times more effort than 1 CV and 10 AC Scouts is exactly 10 times more effort than 1 AC scout.  It would then stand to reason that 71 AC Scouts is exactly the same effort as 71/5 = 14.2 Campus Visits.

Now, I have seen SIMs that take 14 accepted CVs to knock off the last SIM.  In fact, I had 2 recruits this last recruiting season at Kentucky in Hayes that both took exactly 14 (accepted) CVs to get their last SIM knocked off.  That does seem a bit high, but not extremely high and I did not give it a second thought as I was looking through recruits ... so I would not consider it remarkable.

All I am saying is that 71 AC Scouts is the equivalent of  14-15 CVs and at less than 180 miles is also cheaper. 

Math (and also Hips) don't lie

I am not saying to use this method (I don't now and won't start using it at 1A) ... I am saying it would work, especially at <180 miles.   All the math says it will work.