Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

Jtpsops
Posts: 13986 (1)
Hall of Famer
625 1 2 2 138
Prospect
This all comes back to the whole "career vs prime years" debate. Generally speaking, especially nowadays, guys are measured by their entire career when considering HOF merits. A better question might be, what kind of support would these guys get now?

Frankly, I think anyone in the Hall deserves to stay there - it would take a hell of a lot of people voting soley based on someone being a "good guy" or a "gamer" for them to get into the hall. I don't see it happening. I think the criteria has just changed a bit over the years.

Though I don't necessarily support how jrd is trying to make his point, 5000 innings of "X" productivity is a lot more valuable than 3000 innings of "X" productivity, even though both guys are giving you the exact same thing while being on the field. I won't put words in jrd's mouth, but I think he's trying to say that Carlton had a better career (which he did), while Mike and tec are saying that Carlton was equal in talent to Hunter (which is not a far-fetched argument).
2/20/2012 2:03 AM
tecwrg
Posts: 18996 (1)
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Right.

Carlton may have had a better career, but was not necessarily a better pitcher, than Hunter.

jrd seems to either be confused by that, or is insisting that the former leads to the latter.  I see them as two different things.

2/20/2012 7:35 AM
antoncresten
Posts: 9094 (0)
Hall of Famer
296 3
Hall of Famer
RSF IS NOW OFFICIALLY OVER

THREAD CLOSED FER RETAHD REPAIRS
2/20/2012 8:04 AM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
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87 1 47 1 189
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 6:47:00 PM (view original):
If I'm paying a pitcher, I only care what he does when I'm paying him.  Hunter and Carlton are the same pitcher during their playing years.
This.

2/20/2012 9:45 AM
jrd_x
Posts: 1481 (0)
Prospect
3
Prospect
Posted by tecwrg on 2/20/2012 7:35:00 AM (view original):
Right.

Carlton may have had a better career, but was not necessarily a better pitcher, than Hunter.

jrd seems to either be confused by that, or is insisting that the former leads to the latter.  I see them as two different things.

Well no. Over two different spans they have the same ERA, but if you shorten Carlton's career to the same IP as Hunter, his ERA is 3.04 compared to hunter's 3.26. That and the mucher higher strikeout rate is enough to say that Cartlon was better before you factor in the added value of the additional 1800 innings.
2/20/2012 9:56 AM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 5:58:00 PM (view original):
IOW, Hunter gave up one more earned run per month over 15 seasons.

If you account for his increased HRA per 9 when given run support, I'm not sure that's even a point.

In fact, I'd say "It's not".

Same pitcher.
This.
2/20/2012 10:55 AM
kcden
Posts: 1635 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 58 368 157
Prospect
Posted by antoncresten on 2/19/2012 8:07:00 AM (view original):
PITCHERS I'VE SEEN WHO ARE IN:

KOUFAX
MARICHAL
GIBSON
SEAVER
HUNTER
CARLTON
JENKINS
RYAN
SUTTER
SMOLTZ
RIVERA

THATS IT
Randy Johnson wouldn't be in your HOF?
2/20/2012 11:27 AM
antoncresten
Posts: 9094 (0)
Hall of Famer
296 3
Hall of Famer
FORGOT HIM
2/20/2012 11:37 AM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
Maddux?
2/20/2012 12:08 PM
antoncresten
Posts: 9094 (0)
Hall of Famer
296 3
Hall of Famer
NO
2/20/2012 12:14 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
RACIST!!!!
2/20/2012 12:31 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect

Watched a piece on Andrew Jackson.   JOIN ME IN BOYCOTTING $20 BILLS, MY RED-SKINNED BROTHER!!!!

2/20/2012 12:31 PM
antoncresten
Posts: 9094 (0)
Hall of Famer
296 3
Hall of Famer
HOKA HOKA HEY HEY!
2/20/2012 12:41 PM
stinenavy
Posts: 4004 (0)
Hall of Famer
4 330 1
All Star
Pedro?
2/20/2012 2:05 PM
jrd_x
Posts: 1481 (0)
Prospect
3
Prospect
Posted by jrd_x on 2/20/2012 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/20/2012 7:35:00 AM (view original):
Right.

Carlton may have had a better career, but was not necessarily a better pitcher, than Hunter.

jrd seems to either be confused by that, or is insisting that the former leads to the latter.  I see them as two different things.

Well no. Over two different spans they have the same ERA, but if you shorten Carlton's career to the same IP as Hunter, his ERA is 3.04 compared to hunter's 3.26. That and the mucher higher strikeout rate is enough to say that Cartlon was better before you factor in the added value of the additional 1800 innings.
Or this if you prefer arguments based in fact.
2/20/2012 4:30 PM
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