Also only he Cy Young, Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson had won 200 games by age 31. Again impressive. Not quite Radke but close....

Posted by cccp1014 on 6/27/2017 1:26:00 PM (view original):
1970:18 - 14
1971: 21 - 11
1972: 21 - 7
1973: 21 - 5
1974: 25 - 12
1975: 23 - 14
1976: 17- 15

146 - 78 in total....7 yrs

1970:18 - 14 ......93 ERA+ (7% below average)
1971: 21 - 11.......113 ERA+ (13% above average)
1972: 21 - 7........140 ERA+
1973: 21 - 5........107 ERA+
1974: 25 - 12......134 ERA+
1975: 23 - 14......144 ERA+
1976: 17- 15........98 ERA+

In that group: three very good years (72, 74, 75). Two above average years (71, 73). One average year (76). One below average year (70).

Those three good years were very good, but obviously you should need more than that to be a Hall of Famer. Hunter just doesn't have it.

Wait so we don't give him credit for IP, CGs? That seems a bit short sighted. Does Pedro belong in the HOF in your opinion?

One would think his 42 career shutouts are HOF material since Koufax had 40.

Posted by tecwrg on 6/27/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):
Well, you seem confused when presented with pitcher's W/L records, because you can't tell if the guy who went 21-5 is better, worse, or the same as the guy who went 2-17.

I'm not confused.

Catfish Hunter went 18-14 in 1970. He went 13-17 in 1967.

Wanna guess which year he actually pitched better?

Pitcher W/L record is useless because it mixes in so many other things (usage, run support, bullpen quality) that separating the performance of the pitcher from the rest of the team becomes impossible. It's how Jack Morris can go 21-6 in 1992 despite being a completely average pitcher that year. It's how Jim Abbott can go 7-15 in the same year despite being WAAAAAAY better than Morris. Or how Jerry Koosman can go 8-20 in 1977 while pitching as well as Hunter did in 1973 when he went 21-5.

Posted by cccp1014 on 6/27/2017 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Wait so we don't give him credit for IP, CGs? That seems a bit short sighted. Does Pedro belong in the HOF in your opinion?

He definitely gets credit for IP. Here is the list of pitchers with as many IP and an as good or better ERA+:

Walter Johnson

Roger Clemens

Pete Alexander

Lefty Grove

Tom Seaver

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Phil Niekro

Bert Blyleven

Christy Mathewson

Gaylord Perry

Warren Spahn

Eddie Plank

Steve Carlton

Nolan Ryan

Robin Roberts

Mike Mussina

Fergie Jenkins

Bob Gibson

Tom Glavine

Don Sutton

Red Faber

Rick Reuschel

Jim Palmer

Carl Hubbell

Ted Lyons

John Smoltz

Luis Tiant

Bob Feller

Tommy John

Juan Marichal

Jim Bunning

Frank Tanana

Jerry Koosman

Eppa Rixey

Red Ruffing

Waite Hoyt

Bobo Newsom

Early Wynn

Dennis Martinez

Wilbur Cooper

Mickey Lolich

Burleigh Grimes

Bob Friend

Jim Kaat

Herb Pennock

Jack Morris

Paul Derringer

Claude Osteen

So now Claude Osteen is better than Catfish Hunter?

I didn't say he was better. cccp asked if Hunter gets credit for his IP. He does. But to highlight that Hunter's IP was nothing terribly impressive, I listed all pitchers with at least as many IP with at least as good of an ERA+.

Posted by tecwrg on 6/27/2017 2:32:00 PM (view original):
So now Claude Osteen is better than Catfish Hunter?

BWAHAHAHA!!!

Posted by bad_luck on 6/27/2017 12:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 6/27/2017 12:26:00 PM (view original):
BL, have you ever actually watched a baseball game or do you just look at stats?

I watch baseball all the time. Are you arguing that it isn't possible to evaluate pitchers from the past?

Um, did I say that? Sometimes stats is all we have to evaluate a pitcher.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/27/2017 2:35:00 PM (view original):
I didn't say he was better. cccp asked if Hunter gets credit for his IP. He does. But to highlight that Hunter's IP was nothing terribly impressive, I listed all pitchers with at least as many IP with at least as good of an ERA+.

But if he has as many or more IP, with as good or better ERA+, doesn't that make him "better" in your retarded "this is what the stats are saying" logic?

I think war is WAR is a metric that has some use but it's pretty flawed.

I think Wins can be underrated too. Let us not just dismiss the statistic. Again he had 42 career shutouts, made eight all star teams has what four WS rings? Was a dominant pitcher in the 70s while throwing 181 CGs. I think he is HoF worthy but what do I know?

Posted by tecwrg on 6/27/2017 3:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/27/2017 2:35:00 PM (view original):
I didn't say he was better. cccp asked if Hunter gets credit for his IP. He does. But to highlight that Hunter's IP was nothing terribly impressive, I listed all pitchers with at least as many IP with at least as good of an ERA+.

But if he has as many or more IP, with as good or better ERA+, doesn't that make him "better" in your retarded "this is what the stats are saying" logic?

BL?

he ded