OBAMA: BEST PREZ SINCE FDR? Topic

No evidence that he stalled the recovery Swamp. Please stay in the Pit....don't make me come correct your nonsense elsewhere as well.

And what is a "more hardcore" version of Bush foreign policy? He has ended the two wars and as not started any. How is that the same as the Bush foreign policy?
5/13/2012 1:46 AM
Well, he did get Osama bin Laden, whereas Bush merely failed to get Osama bin Laden. I guess that's more hardcore.
5/13/2012 2:06 AM

DUBYA NOT ONLY FAILED, HE BOTCHED TORA BORA,DISBANDED BIN LADEN UNIT, AND STATED HE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT HIM.

5/13/2012 9:17 AM
Posted by seamar_116 on 5/13/2012 1:46:00 AM (view original):
No evidence that he stalled the recovery Swamp. Please stay in the Pit....don't make me come correct your nonsense elsewhere as well.

And what is a "more hardcore" version of Bush foreign policy? He has ended the two wars and as not started any. How is that the same as the Bush foreign policy?

Well, the monthly U.S. military death rate in Afghanistan has been 5x higher under Obama than it was under Bush.  That's " more hardcore" in my book.

Obama has also gone out of his way repeatedly to insult the Brittish, who have historically been our closest ally.

5/13/2012 10:10 AM
Posted by seamar_116 on 5/13/2012 1:46:00 AM (view original):
No evidence that he stalled the recovery Swamp. Please stay in the Pit....don't make me come correct your nonsense elsewhere as well.

And what is a "more hardcore" version of Bush foreign policy? He has ended the two wars and as not started any. How is that the same as the Bush foreign policy?
Sorry Seamar...couldnt let the truth not be told here.

Actually the evidence is clear. The recovery is stalled. The Stimulus was a disaster. And Obamacare is crushing small business.

1 The "End" of the Iraq war is exactly as Bush had set up.
2 The "End" of Afghanistan is a little more theoretical.
3 What about Gitmo? What about drones?
4 I realize while he carries out the Bush Foreign Policy he continues making speechs criticizing America and its Allies, so I guess that keeps the left happy.
5/13/2012 12:49 PM
you've got to provide evidence. How is Obamacare crushing small business? Data please. You know, if the Federal gov't provided it rather than employers, that would be an improvement, would it not? Single-payer? Why should a families health care be dependent on employment?

Why was the stimulus a "disaster"? Define disaster. It probably wasn't big enough. It did save Detroit though. What would have happened without the stimulus? Ruminate on that for us.

So to sum up, you are in favor of the government doing nothing during economic hard times. Let the people suffer. Let the housing market hit bottom, let Detroit go bankrupt. If you are 5 and your mom and dad don't have a good health insurance plan through their employer, because you live in a right to work (for less) state, well, don't get sick. If you get laid-off and you have a pre-existing health condition and you get a new job...well, too bad about that. Do I have that all right Swamp? I would not want to mischaracterize your positions.

What about Gitmo? Presidents find out certain things after they get elected, and not before. I am going to assume that new information was received that altered his position on that. What's the problem with drones? Would you rather have actual pilots at risk?

Show me the "Bush plan" so we can see if it is exactly like "Bush had it set up"
If Bush had  done the job in Afghanistan the first time, we would not still be there. Oh yeah, and Iraq would not have happened.
5/13/2012 10:59 PM
Posted by seamar_116 on 5/13/2012 11:00:00 PM (view original):
you've got to provide evidence. How is Obamacare crushing small business? Data please. You know, if the Federal gov't provided it rather than employers, that would be an improvement, would it not? Single-payer? Why should a families health care be dependent on employment?

Why was the stimulus a "disaster"? Define disaster. It probably wasn't big enough. It did save Detroit though. What would have happened without the stimulus? Ruminate on that for us.

So to sum up, you are in favor of the government doing nothing during economic hard times. Let the people suffer. Let the housing market hit bottom, let Detroit go bankrupt. If you are 5 and your mom and dad don't have a good health insurance plan through their employer, because you live in a right to work (for less) state, well, don't get sick. If you get laid-off and you have a pre-existing health condition and you get a new job...well, too bad about that. Do I have that all right Swamp? I would not want to mischaracterize your positions.

What about Gitmo? Presidents find out certain things after they get elected, and not before. I am going to assume that new information was received that altered his position on that. What's the problem with drones? Would you rather have actual pilots at risk?

Show me the "Bush plan" so we can see if it is exactly like "Bush had it set up"
If Bush had  done the job in Afghanistan the first time, we would not still be there. Oh yeah, and Iraq would not have happened.
1 The government cannot provide Health Care. All it can do is take your money and buy stuff and then give it to you.

2 Single payer. Lets say the government set up a system where you pay one amount and can eat whatever you want. Would prices go up or down? And wouldnt everyone want to eat at 3 star michelin places. Someone in the government will decide if you get your health care from Le Bernardin or McDonalds.

3 The stimulus sucked about as much out of the economy as the whole Iraq war did. It created a handful of jobs. Disaster is a relative term and I use it because it impacts people. Lets go bad idea and poorly implemented.

4 The people are suffering because of the crash. Letting market forces bring the economy back helps people. GM went bankrupt.

5 So one of the main points of the Obama campaign, and one of his key promises was an error? How many other things about the Bush Foreign policy can Obama just brush aside as "Well now that I am President....".

5/14/2012 12:32 AM
5/14/2012 12:11 PM
Posted by jrd_x on 5/14/2012 12:12:00 PM (view original):
The stimulus worked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFVnZZegXs

Because some liberal schmoe from a left-wing think-tank made a video on YouTube?  That's "proof" that the stimulus worked?
5/14/2012 12:42 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/14/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 5/14/2012 12:12:00 PM (view original):
The stimulus worked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFVnZZegXs

Because some liberal schmoe from a left-wing think-tank made a video on YouTube?  That's "proof" that the stimulus worked?
Not necessarily.  But the argument is convincing.  The CBO agrees the stimulus worked.  Moody's.com agrees the stimulus worked.  Macroeconomic advisors agree that the stimulus worked.

I'm sure plenty of people disagree, but I think that the broad economic indicators show that the stimulus stopped the economic free fall we were in.
5/14/2012 12:53 PM
2 schools of thought.

1 During economic bad times the government should step in and stimulate the economy.
2 The Government taking capital out of the free market slows the natural economic recovery.

I think in reality everyone from Bachman to Kucinich feel that there is middle ground.

The CBO isnt really good at independent thought. They do the numbers as they are told, with no critical analysis.

The stimulus was poorly managed and agenda driven. You had to spend on what Obama wanted, not what your state needed.
5/14/2012 2:00 PM
Posted by swamphawk22 on 5/14/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
2 schools of thought.

1 During economic bad times the government should step in and stimulate the economy.
2 The Government taking capital out of the free market slows the natural economic recovery.

I think in reality everyone from Bachman to Kucinich feel that there is middle ground.

The CBO isnt really good at independent thought. They do the numbers as they are told, with no critical analysis.

The stimulus was poorly managed and agenda driven. You had to spend on what Obama wanted, not what your state needed.
I agree that the stimulus was poorly managed.  I think what we got was a bad compromise and could have been more effective.

Your second point is true if the government is actually taking additional capital out of the market.  I don't believe the crowding out actually happened.  Capital was at a standstill.  The stimulus wasn't financed with a tax increase, just additional debt, and any investor parking their money in a ten year tbill returning almost negative yields isn't looking to invest that money into something risky enough to create jobs.
5/14/2012 2:11 PM
The stimulus locked in the lack of capital.

If they had just tried to get as many jobs as possible it might have been less of a burden, but they were clearly making a political point in the spending.
5/14/2012 4:17 PM
Posted by swamphawk22 on 5/14/2012 4:17:00 PM (view original):
The stimulus locked in the lack of capital.

If they had just tried to get as many jobs as possible it might have been less of a burden, but they were clearly making a political point in the spending.
How did it lock in the lack of capital?  I don't really know what that means.

There wasn't a lack of capital, just a lack of capital movement.  Piles and piles of cash were sitting idle because companies didn't want to risk investing it anywhere.  The stimulus took (offered up voluntarily through bonds) that capital and got it moving.

Inefficient?  Sure.  Politicized?  Absolutely.  But inefficient, political spending is better than no spending at all.  And no spending is what caused the recession.
5/14/2012 4:22 PM
The economy was in a normal dip. It was a big dip but nothing bizzare.

It would have rebounded. FDR responded after America was at rock bottom for a while, Obama jumped in before the paint on the 1st forclosure sign was wet.

How can you walk the tight rope between he did a bad job but it still helped?
5/14/2012 7:13 PM
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