# 212 plus plays Topic

Posted by contrarian23 on 7/19/2012 8:03:00 PM (view original):
Huh...learn something new every day.

OK then: this team turned 109 DPs.
Lg Avg: 113
Max: 141
Min: 75

Interesting... although your good pitching and fielding should keep the number of baserunners down, I was under the impression that high range 2B's (and to a lesser extent SS's) create more DP's.  I'm not going to sit down and do the math... maybe they did create more DP's but one would only be able to tell by figuring out the number of DP's per baserunner... or the number or DP's per DP situation.

7/24/2012 6:35 PM (edited)
Can someone explain how range factor works in the SIM?  All of my players have A+ range w/actual fielding ranges that are A++.  Yet just about every one of my players ranks at the bottom of their position rankings for SIM range factor despite having better actual RF's than the players ranked above them.  I've looked in the Forums but nothing seems to explain the results I'm experiencing.  Tks in advance for any insight to this. Team Clift Hangers in league MLB99421
7/25/2012 8:56 AM
Your team has 123+ plays...that's where the range comes in.  For the most part, think of a plus play as "would have been a hit, but a player with great range turned it into an out."

There are only 27 outs to go around in a baseball game.  No matter how good or bad your players are, they can only make 27 defensive outs in a game.  So putting a team full of great range guys together will NOT lead to them all leading the league in range at their position - they can't, mathematically.  What happens instead is exactly what your team is doing - your opponents are getting fewer hits, and your pitchers look much better as a result.
7/25/2012 9:31 AM
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I think I'm with booger on this one...  Given that the initial "dice roll" landed on hit for a + play, how outs occur SHOULD be basically irrelevant to + play count.  You'd get more - plays with a low K pitcher, but I don't see any reason why + plays should be affected unless you make some argument about how the higher number of - plays and errors results in slightly more chances...
7/26/2012 12:20 AM
Yeah, the SIM decides "Hit or Out"  before Strikeout.  Since the out is all ready decided, a "+" play can't happen.

High fielding percentage players dp  benefit from  low K pitchers  because of the increased chances but the high range guys don't earn any more opportunities from them.
7/26/2012 5:48 AM
TJ, that latter part, about high range defenders, is the case because the range of defenders has already been calculated into whether it is a hit or an out, which comes before deciding if it is a strikeout, a + play etc. if I understand this correctly.

Is that right ?

So, the defensive ratings, in a sense, are incorporated into the pitcher-batter matchup in determining the hit-out outcome in the first place, and only later is a strikeout determined, or a + play. In a sense, a K is treated by the SIM as though it were a + play on the part of the pitcher.

I don't like to disagree with booger on anything serious here as he is usually right about these things (and wrong about everything else, first of all his own self-estimation  - see "bomb, not the..." - but I digress), but if this is true, then the reason that high K pitchers reduce + plays is that they share in the total + plays possible with the K being their version of it, Even if 27 plus plays were possible in a game (see contrarian23's good reminder to us of the limits of the horizon event), if 10 Ks are recorded we are now down to a max of 17 + plays in the field.

Have I got this right ?

7/26/2012 8:25 AM (edited)
I have started a separate thread that shows the order in which WIS decides what happens in each PA
7/26/2012 8:35 AM
A couple of things I can add as someone who has made many + play teams is that I have found in order to have the \$\$ to afford the decent to good hitting + guys you have to lower the overall quality of your pitchers.  Since pitchers are all allotted a certain # of pitches, and good defense/range defenders reduce that amount even further the best pitchers to use are indeed the low BB, low K guys since they are overall much cheaper.   As for the defenders you choose,  you do not need max range guys at every position.  You do not need a super high end A++ guy at 1st, LF or RF which allows much better flexibility in terms of offense.   I can't remember the exact # but I think I had around 240+ plays once when I put my team in Coors a few years ago.  It would up winning a 90 mil TOC from an 80 mil OL with around a 35 mil pitching staff.  The opening game of the TOC they had 9 + plays...
8/1/2012 7:27 AM (edited)
Good stuff beaneball - thanks for sharing.

My conclusions from all the posts in this thread are as follows:
-- You can win with defense.  It's difficult, but possible, and is a viable alternative to (and perhaps even a winning strategy against...) the Joss/single/SB teams.
-- Executing this strategy requires a good understanding of marginal cost and marginal benefit...this is part of what I missed in putting the initial team together.  As someone pointed out, putting 95 Maddux on this team as (a) overkill and (b) expensive.  The marginal benefit he provided in terms of run prevention was not worth his marginal cost over another pitcher of lesser quality but comparable IP/162.
-- You need a couple of good bats in the lineup, which is problematic since few if any of the A++++ range guys are really good hitters.  I like beaneball's suggestion of sacrificing range at the corners to get better offense.  And as others have suggested, it's probably a better strategy to put this club in a plus-offense park, which will do more to improve your offense than your opponents (because your great range will limit some of your opponent's extra hits).

I may try this again sometime with a different combo.  Hopefully others will too.  If you do, please consider posting your results here.
8/1/2012 9:27 AM
U got it Contrarian....

Myself and Zubinsum discussed range at length in the past, although I haven't been making nearly as many teams as I used to.  The best places to go w/ lower A+ range guys is 1B, LF & RF.  With a little research in leagues you are in it's easy to spot where the basic cutoffs are.  For example,  you don't need a 3.35 RRF guy in RF. I had almost 50+ plays out of a 3.06 RRF Willie Wilson once.  At 1B I had a 39 HR, 40+ play season from Billy O'Brien and his range at 1st is only 10.79 which is on the low end for only 4.08 mil.   Also, depending on years it seems certain guys RRF transfers much better w/ + plays.  Older players range seems to generally translate better as well as for some odd reason many of the 2011 guys as well.  Even A range can provide 20+ plays it seems for 2011

I have a A+ range Coors team right now about to start.  After that team I made won the TOC there I have tried to recapture that magic but it's much easier said than done.  I named it "A Bad Idea" thinking it was a dumb team concept to try.  I guess it wasn't.

8/1/2012 8:18 PM (edited)
Hah...I love it...the name of my team was "This Will Never Work" but it almost did.
8/1/2012 10:19 PM
Posted by contrarian23 on 8/1/2012 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Good stuff beaneball - thanks for sharing.

My conclusions from all the posts in this thread are as follows:
-- You can win with defense.  It's difficult, but possible, and is a viable alternative to (and perhaps even a winning strategy against...) the Joss/single/SB teams.
-- Executing this strategy requires a good understanding of marginal cost and marginal benefit...this is part of what I missed in putting the initial team together.  As someone pointed out, putting 95 Maddux on this team as (a) overkill and (b) expensive.  The marginal benefit he provided in terms of run prevention was not worth his marginal cost over another pitcher of lesser quality but comparable IP/162.
-- You need a couple of good bats in the lineup, which is problematic since few if any of the A++++ range guys are really good hitters.  I like beaneball's suggestion of sacrificing range at the corners to get better offense.  And as others have suggested, it's probably a better strategy to put this club in a plus-offense park, which will do more to improve your offense than your opponents (because your great range will limit some of your opponent's extra hits).

I may try this again sometime with a different combo.  Hopefully others will too.  If you do, please consider posting your results here.
It seems to me, though, that you'd be playing with fire if you both downgrade your pitching and move the team to an offensive park.
8/2/2012 10:35 PM
It definitely is, but that is just for the purposes of going for max + plays with a chance to make the playoffs.  You could do a team of this type, move it to a less offensive park and do pretty good as well, and maybe even have a better chance at the playoffs.
8/4/2012 9:13 PM

I took the challenge and threw my Rangefinders into an open league.  We're now 50 games into the season and my team is sitting at 26-24; 7 games back so on pace for a total of 85 wins.    We're playing at Hilltop.

Here are the team's "+" and "-" to date

1952 Goodman, 2B  11/0  .957 FP
1914 Burns  1B         9/0
1919 Fletcher SS      9/0     (I have used him a few times quite awhile ago, and recall him once having 41 + plays.  No recollection of the park used back then)
1973 North CF          8/0
1977 Lemon LF         6/0  (actually 5-0 in LF and 1-0 in center)
1926 Douthit RF        5/0
1981 Oberkfell 3b      5/0   (I had just come off a theme season using Oberkfell and he had 27 + plays for me in that league.  Not on the same pace)

My Pitchers have combined for 8 plus plays.
Team total for + plays is 61 so am on pace for 198 total

There have been a total of 4 "-" plays.  Three have been by my "not too rangy" AAA spot starters and the ohter by my closer, '64 Barney Schultz.

I went with a three man rotation of the 1890 Sadie McMahon (477 RL IP), the '76 Bird Fidrych, and the 1985 Hershiser.  They're doing their jobs well in a 1, 2A,2B style format with WHIPs/ERAs of 1.38/4.08,  1.25/3.16, and 0.92/209 respectively. Each of them has A+ range, as do the preponderance of my RL staff.

In the olden days of SIM, McMahon had great value as a "+" making machine, but evidently the changes Admin made in the game has dampened that as he only has 3 for me.  I didn't take the time to do the research to refresh my memory on the defensive change specifics.

There are reasons for me to think this crew might still be able to win 90+ games.   Our offensive line (driven by the park to some degree) is

.281 BA  .321 OBP   .364 SLG vs. a league average of .273/333/.370 while the pitchers (helped by the range no doubt) are:

.234 OAV, .309 OBP , .307 SLG, 1.27 WHIP and 3.28 ERA vs. the league average of
.273/.333/.370/1.42 and 4.23.

I'll post again after 100 or so games have been played.

8/24/2012 2:24 PM (edited)
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212 plus plays Topic