The real life Astros have been including buckets of cash in every trade they have done over the last 2 year's. How is this debate still happening?

Posted by boydndahood on 7/29/2012 11:38:00 PM (view original):
The real life Astros have been including buckets of cash in every trade they have done over the last 2 year's. How is this debate still happening?

HBD is not MLB. Regardless of which side you are on, this argument carries no water. No go write it on the board: HBDis not MLB.

Everyone understands that something was given up. What you can't seem to grasp is that in this case that something is a pile of elephant turd compared to the #1 draft pick alleyviper is obtaining with the cash.

Posted by jclarkbaker on 7/29/2012 10:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2012 9:14:00 PM (view original):
I'll help.  One guy wins a WS and averages over 100 wins per season.  The other is averaging about 95 losses per season since giving out 5m    Good trade?

Congratulations.  Fantastic sample size.  And you completely fail to address any other variables.  The other major flaw of your "study".

It's a constant.   I'm not posting 72 examples so you can say "Still a small sample size."    I went back 5 seasons in YOUR world and picked the first 5m trade.   Much to my surprise, it played out like it always does.    Owner getting 5m has better team and for the next 5 seasons, still has the better team.  

2nd 5m trade in S15 Kinsella

Kinsella	MIL Brewers	15	$94.9M	98-64 (.605)	1	-
Kinsella	MIL Brewers	16	$94.8M	104-58 (.642)	1	-
Kinsella	MIL Brewers	17	$96.1M	95-67 (.586)	1	-
Kinsella	MIL Brewers	18	$101.9M	94-68 (.580)	1	-
Kinsella	MIL Brewers	19	$102.9M	87-75 (.537)	2	-

Kinsella	DET Tigers	15	$82.9M	65-97 (.401)	4	-
Kinsella	DET Tigers	16	$81.6M	55-107 (.340)	4	-
Kinsella	DET Tigers	17	$64.8M	63-99 (.389)	4	-
Kinsella	DET Tigers	18	$58.5M	69-93 (.426)	4	-
Kinsella	DET Tigers	19	$41.0M	61-101 (.377)	4	-

15	Detroit Tigers	jdrake27	$5.0M	Carson Graves	Bruce Hill	A.J. Brownson
15	Milwaukee Brewers	bison8	$0	Jude Leslie	Lonny Ibarra	-

How peculiar.   Team getting the 5m has maintained a dominate record while the other guy, well, doesn't.

I'd post the other 5m trade in S15 of Kinsella but it involves jdrake27 again and it's just more of the same.   Like it is an OVERWHELMING majority of the time.

Season 14 of Kinsella had some owners throwing cash around.  15m with one owner.   Who left after the season. 

14	Tampa Bay Rays	blanch13	$5.0M	Branch Vitiello	-	-
14	Florida Marlins	marsrover21	$0	Jim Rowan	-	-
14	Florida Marlins	marsrover21	$0	Billy Baptist	Felipe Ferrer	-
14	Atlanta Braves	bigal888	$5.0M	Cliff Rivers	-	-
14	Florida Marlins	marsrover21	$0	Alvin Post	-	-
14	Atlanta Braves	bigal888	$0	Bing Wright	-	-
14	Florida Marlins	marsrover21	$0	Josias Mercedes	Lewis Westbrook	-
14	Los Angeles Dodgers	selmer	$0	Quilvio Navarro	-	-
14	Florida Marlins	marsrover21	$1.5M	Tommy Gibson	-	-
14	Atlanta Braves	bigal888	$0	Jerry Edmonds	-	-
14	Florida Marlins	marsrover21	$3.5M	Branch Vitiello	-	-
14	Chicago White Sox	jnewfry	$0	Bryan Benoit	Charles Martin	-

But at least he was a giver and a taker.   BTW, bigal and blanch left after S15. 

yeah, I was terrible in that league...probably somewhat due to the terrible trades I made.

With that, I'll just throw in my two cents:  If a league is going to let me get cash in a trade, I will do it every time.  If I can build a cap of $200 million, I'll do it.  But if a league doesn't like it, it's not worth it.  HBD has the problem of allowing a "soft" cap on the payroll when there should probably be the option for private leagues to instigate a "hard" cap if they so desire.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2012 8:23:00 AM (view original):
How many times can people say the same thing yet think they're making their point in a better manner?

I did this awhile ago and I imagine the results would be the same.    Check the cash deals in your world(or any world) where cash isn't restricted.   You'll likely find a few things:
1.  The better team is getting the cash.
2.  That same team will still be better in three seasons.
3,  One or both owners will be gone after five seasons.

IOW, the owner doling OUT cash usually isn't as good at HBD as the owner getting cash and despite his brilliant move to make a good team better, he won't get better at HBD than his trade partner.

I wasn't really singling anyone out, bigal, I was just backing up this after jclark disputed it.

S15 of Major Leagues

15	Boston Red Sox	jclarkbaker	$0	Ross Lamb	-	-
15	Detroit Tigers	kelly_mccann	$5.0M	Pinky Mailman	Steven Lesher	Cutter Niemann

Guess which owner left after the season.

Shipoopi?

Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2012 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jclarkbaker on 7/29/2012 10:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2012 9:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jclarkbaker on 7/29/2012 9:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2012 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jclarkbaker on 7/29/2012 5:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2012 4:27:00 PM (view original):
Let me try again.

It's near the trade deadline.  You have $2m of available cap space.  You find a trading partner who is willing to trade you a stud ML pitcher who has $7m still left on his contract this season for a stud prospect of comparable projected ratings.  You need to cover the difference of $5m of cap space.

What is easier: (a) accepting $5m cash from the trading partner (assuming he is willing to do that because he really covets the stud prospect), or (b) clearing $5m cap space on your own via a separate deal before you make the deal outlined above?

What is easier because of time constraints is doing the deal and getting the $5m.  But is the deal as you indicated fair?  I would say probably not.  If the ML pitcher has comparable ratings to the projected ratings of the prospect, I am getting the better deal.  It probably gets vetoed.  Not because I cannot cover the salary, but because I am not giving up anything to get that $5m.

See?  Now was that so difficult, to admit that accepting cash in deals is the lazy man's way to circumventing cap problems?

Next question: is having an effective $190m budget with $10m of available cap space the same as having a $185m budget with $10m of available cap space?

Dumping a high priced ML player for prospects is pretty damn easy.  So I really don't know what point you're trying to make.

Is it the same?  No.  Do you have the exact same amount of money to use.  Yes.  Cap space is all that matters.  Because you give up value to increase that cap number.  There is no windfall.

"Dumping a high priced ML player for prospects is pretty damn easy."

Is it?  You can take any player on your team with a high salary and trade him for comparable prospects at will?

Also, $190m budget with $10m cap space is NOT the same as $185m budget with $10m cap space, because that additional $5m budget has been spent somewhere.  So where did it go?

It is amazing that you keep missing the big elephant in the room:  you are giving up value to get the extra cap space.  It doesn't just appear out of no where and then you have extra money to spend.

Again, you avoid answering the questions.

Why is that?

I have no idea where it went.  Throwing up hypothetical budgets and caps shows nothing.  It does not show how any of the money has been utilzed.

Posted by joshkvt on 7/29/2012 11:40:00 PM (view original):
Everyone understands that something was given up. What you can't seem to grasp is that in this case that something is a pile of elephant turd compared to the #1 draft pick alleyviper is obtaining with the cash.

This discussion long ago ceased being about the example in post one.  As I have repeated over and over, if the trade is unfair you veto.  That guy is not worth $5m, no matter what is to be done with the cash after such a trade.