What should they all mean? RATINGS REVISITED Topic

norbert
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There are three ratings that I think can sort of overlap, SPD, ATH, and ELU, especially ATH and ELU.  I was thinking of making SPD consistent and just be a plain "how fast can you run" rating.  For all actions in which a player is trying to run somewhere quickly, the engine would use SPD.  ELU would be in trying to avoid a player (no kidding, huh?) and would be factored in when trying to tackle a player in the open field.  But I can see it also being used as a counter to BLK in that the defensive player is attempting to avoid the block.  For ATH, I was looking at that as the player's ability to control their body. An example of this would be a receiver trying to stretch out to catch a poorly thrown ball.

This kind of brings up a problem of mashing ratings together for an action.  Say we look at a player's ATH and ELU to counter a player's BLK.  What if a player has 80 ELU and 40 ATH?  It's difficult for me to think a player could be highly elusive, but low athleticism. To me, those two ratings kind of feel like the same thing.  It's difficult to think of a situation that would call for ELU that doesn't also call for ATH, but if I always pair those two, then it diminishes the value of each.  If I had two players that had 80 ELU, I would expect them to be pretty comparable in eluding tackles or sacks or blocks.  But now one has a low ATH and is now not really all that elusive, even though his ELU is high.  It just seem in this case that ELU could have been just as well served by using ATH.

So with all of that - what I'm thinking is to make ELU the rating used when trying to avoid someone else.  For offense, ELU counters TKL.  For defense, ELU counters BLK.  Which means I only need to figure out how to work ATH into the picture.  It might be that ATH is always used when looking at some personal action of the player.  For instance, the defensive player passes the ELU/BLK check, now ATH determines how well he gets to the QB or rusher.

For the outside line, when a defender is trying to get into the backfield and run around the blocker, I think SPD is in order.  For countering that on the offensive side, i think I have to use ATH.  The FAQ says SPD for OL, but SPD is not generated or developed for OL whereas ATH is.  I think it also makes sense when considering SPD as fast and ATH as being able to move.  A defender will try to run around a blocker, and the blocker tries to get in position to not allow him to run around him.  Yes, STR versus STR will also be considered in the case of a defender just trying to run over the blocker, but the engine is able to compare both match ups.  So just to get specific, on a pass rush on the outside line I can look at three matchups: STR -> STR, SPD -> ATH, and ELU -> BLK.  Between those three match ups I should be able to limit the range of possible results to something that more adequately reflects those match ups.

This is just one example of breaking down a small part of the play, so you might be able to see why it is as much work as I was saying.  But in the long run, especially if I can convey these match ups in the PBP, I think we will have a better game.
8/14/2012 11:23 AM
moranis
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Posted by norbert on 8/13/2012 7:27:00 PM (view original):
There are a few cases where I am kind of stumbling for ratings. For instance, It's pretty much locked up that STR/BLK would be used for OL in the match up at the line, especially between the tackles and probably STR/BLK for rushing plays and BLK/STR for passing plays, but I need counter ratings for the match up on the defensive side.  Obviously STR counters STR, but there's not really a good counter to BLK on the defensive side as far as I can see.  If you look at STR as the ability for an OL to push and BLK as the ability for an OL to prevent a player from getting past him, then it might make sense for ATH to counter BLK as that could represent a player's ability to get around a blocking player.  What do you guys think?  I know TECH might be thrown out there, but I'd like TECH to universally represent a player's ability to perform consistently in any of the actions he is performing.
I think game instinct would also play in there.  I mean if the DL recognizes the play call faster, he will have a much easier time getting around the block as he will be in better position.  Obviously speed, athleticism, elusiveness, and strength would all play into that. 

It would almost be easier if you had a new category called "defensive rush" which would be a combination of technique, positioning, speed, athleticism, elusiveness, strength, and game instinct. 

When you try to be too simplistic all sorts of other problems arise.  I know it can't be overly complicated, but too simplistic will also cause problems.

8/14/2012 1:38 PM (edited)
caesari
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Norbert-

One BIG suggestion/ question is about ATH. I think that it should be similar to Hoops Dynasty, where ATH modifies most (all?) ratings within the engine.

For example, in Hoops, a really good scorer could have 50 ATH and 100 Low Post (ability to score from the paint, for those who don't play). However, another player with 100 ATH and 60 Low Post could be just as effective, and almost as efficient. 

What exactly does ATH do now, and what do you plan on using it for?
8/14/2012 5:54 PM
caesari
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Which means I only need to figure out how to work ATH into the picture.  It might be that ATH is always used when looking at some personal action of the player.  For instance, the defensive player passes the ELU/BLK check, now ATH determines how well he gets to the QB or rusher.

Oops, missed this part. My above post addresses my stance, that it should be an almost a modifier. Perhaps a highly athletic team with low TECH would make many mistakes, but also be able to make big plays more often (just spitballing here. Perhaps this is not an apt example).
8/14/2012 5:56 PM
bhouska
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This sounds like it will almost make TKL damn near meaningless for DL, no?

Personally, to me, I've always compared TKL for DL versus BLK for OL. I know that that doesn't really make sense, but that's how this game has trained me. Especially GD1.0.

8/14/2012 7:15 PM
norbert
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Posted by bhouska on 8/14/2012 7:15:00 PM (view original):
This sounds like it will almost make TKL damn near meaningless for DL, no?

Personally, to me, I've always compared TKL for DL versus BLK for OL. I know that that doesn't really make sense, but that's how this game has trained me. Especially GD1.0.

Well, I'd like to make TKL actually mean tackling.  If that's a change in thinking, I guess we need to consider if the change is for the better or if we'll always have to explain that TKL is for tackling EXCEPT in this certain situation.  For a DL, the way I was thinking it would be used is to check tackling at the line.  But first we can determine the matchup of the defensive line against the offense.  If they are pretty tied up, chances are the DL isn't going to make a tackle and would rely on the LB.  If they are doing well against the blocking, then there would be a chance a DL could make a tackle.  In real life, I'm picturing that DL that's tied up with the OL that somehow manages to get his arm out to tackle that runner.  We'll also be able to perform different checks for tackling based on whether the ball carrier is being tackled in traffic, being tackled by multiple defenders, or being tackled in the open.  I think the mix of ratings used in these checks can vary, but anytime tackling is taking place, TKL will be in the mix.

So while TKL might not be the primary rating in a DL performing at the line, it isn't necessarily meaningless to them either.

I'm also building the engine so it should be pretty easy to adjust the mix for the different actions, so in beta if we find certain mixes of ratings aren't working out well, we can always adjust them.
8/14/2012 7:29 PM
caesari
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Posted by norbert on 8/14/2012 7:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bhouska on 8/14/2012 7:15:00 PM (view original):
This sounds like it will almost make TKL damn near meaningless for DL, no?

Personally, to me, I've always compared TKL for DL versus BLK for OL. I know that that doesn't really make sense, but that's how this game has trained me. Especially GD1.0.

Well, I'd like to make TKL actually mean tackling.  If that's a change in thinking, I guess we need to consider if the change is for the better or if we'll always have to explain that TKL is for tackling EXCEPT in this certain situation.  For a DL, the way I was thinking it would be used is to check tackling at the line.  But first we can determine the matchup of the defensive line against the offense.  If they are pretty tied up, chances are the DL isn't going to make a tackle and would rely on the LB.  If they are doing well against the blocking, then there would be a chance a DL could make a tackle.  In real life, I'm picturing that DL that's tied up with the OL that somehow manages to get his arm out to tackle that runner.  We'll also be able to perform different checks for tackling based on whether the ball carrier is being tackled in traffic, being tackled by multiple defenders, or being tackled in the open.  I think the mix of ratings used in these checks can vary, but anytime tackling is taking place, TKL will be in the mix.

So while TKL might not be the primary rating in a DL performing at the line, it isn't necessarily meaningless to them either.

I'm also building the engine so it should be pretty easy to adjust the mix for the different actions, so in beta if we find certain mixes of ratings aren't working out well, we can always adjust them.
So does this mean the tackling #s will shift to LBs, more like RL? i.e. a DL can tie up the offensive line and allow the LBs to make the play?

Or am I misunderstanding?
8/14/2012 7:33 PM
norbert
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Posted by caesari on 8/14/2012 7:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by norbert on 8/14/2012 7:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bhouska on 8/14/2012 7:15:00 PM (view original):
This sounds like it will almost make TKL damn near meaningless for DL, no?

Personally, to me, I've always compared TKL for DL versus BLK for OL. I know that that doesn't really make sense, but that's how this game has trained me. Especially GD1.0.

Well, I'd like to make TKL actually mean tackling.  If that's a change in thinking, I guess we need to consider if the change is for the better or if we'll always have to explain that TKL is for tackling EXCEPT in this certain situation.  For a DL, the way I was thinking it would be used is to check tackling at the line.  But first we can determine the matchup of the defensive line against the offense.  If they are pretty tied up, chances are the DL isn't going to make a tackle and would rely on the LB.  If they are doing well against the blocking, then there would be a chance a DL could make a tackle.  In real life, I'm picturing that DL that's tied up with the OL that somehow manages to get his arm out to tackle that runner.  We'll also be able to perform different checks for tackling based on whether the ball carrier is being tackled in traffic, being tackled by multiple defenders, or being tackled in the open.  I think the mix of ratings used in these checks can vary, but anytime tackling is taking place, TKL will be in the mix.

So while TKL might not be the primary rating in a DL performing at the line, it isn't necessarily meaningless to them either.

I'm also building the engine so it should be pretty easy to adjust the mix for the different actions, so in beta if we find certain mixes of ratings aren't working out well, we can always adjust them.
So does this mean the tackling #s will shift to LBs, more like RL? i.e. a DL can tie up the offensive line and allow the LBs to make the play?

Or am I misunderstanding?
Oh, I hope so!!!  DLs leading in tackles and sacks just ain't right.    Yes, the goal is to build the play so that there are certain players that will engage at the line and other players working around them, so DL have a job to do and LB have a job to do.  Depending on the match ups, they might share some of those jobs.  Also, this will hopefully give more definition to the different formations without having to resort to the "if 3-4 then x=x*0.8" and we should naturally have strengths and weaknesses of the different formations.  in either case, I hope to build clear documentation of what each formation is doing.
8/14/2012 7:43 PM
jc1796
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On a tangental but germane point, when we figure out what the "cores" are and what makes up a good player in each position and role, how much transparency do we want?  Should at least some of the magic stuff in the black box stay hidden? 


8/14/2012 8:04 PM
0bigzeke0
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Posted by jc1796 on 8/14/2012 8:04:00 PM (view original):
On a tangental but germane point, when we figure out what the "cores" are and what makes up a good player in each position and role, how much transparency do we want?  Should at least some of the magic stuff in the black box stay hidden? 


Hey conference mate jc - Personally - I feel that we should almost know all the ins and outs of all the positions and how they interact. Just a real coaches know what traits they want for their teams so should we. That would still make it our goal to get those players - and with the variety and challenges to get the best players during recruiting getting all the "best" players for your team would still be the challenge.

This game has lacked transparency during this version - I think it is time we can see what is happening inside the game and then do our best to improve our teams or stop the other teams.
8/14/2012 11:43 PM
norbert
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I think if transparency means knowing which ratings affect different actions, certainly so.  I don't think we can give any kind of numbers or percentages in most cases, mostly because they tend to be a little more complex than that.  There aren't many things that we could say something like "every 1 point of this means X".  There may be some things that we can do that with, like kicking.  When I get closer to getting everything in the engine and once we start rolling in to the beta, I'll review all of these things and see if there are any cases where we can expose the effects of ratings and it make sense to the user.
8/15/2012 10:36 AM
bhazlewood
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Just give the answers to me so I can make the GUESS ratings almost perfect. :)
8/15/2012 12:08 PM
bakerbarnett
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If TECH is going to be a measure of player consistency, then what will be the major determinant of DB success?  Will ELU for DBs now offset ELU for WRs?
8/15/2012 2:56 PM
polabonez
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I don't get why it has to be so confusing/difficult/realistic.

WR measured by SPD , TECH, HANDS
DB measured by SPD, TECH, HANDS.

Better DB's have a better chance of stopping the play.  Better WR's have a better chance of making the play.  QB Factors into both situations......

Simple is better.


8/15/2012 4:27 PM
cydrych
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But don't oversimplify it.  For instance, I know Norbert has already identified that there should be a difference between long routes and short routes, likely requiring different skill sets. 

Maybe Speed is only important on long routes... a DB whose Speed is outmatched could be at a significant disadvantage (unless the formation provides a safety cover).  Short routes could be about a WR's Elusiveness where a DBs Instinct or Elusiveness might be needed to counter.  Either way, ,when the ball is delivered (which is up to another set of calculations to see if the QB sees the open receiver and can make a quality throw) everyone in the target area will need decent hands and technique to make a play.
8/15/2012 5:11 PM
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