Posted by mchalesarmy on 8/29/2012 5:22:00 PM (view original):
Tom, that was my question.

You say a season or two. Someone else thinks 4 or 5 is fine. I'm not saying it's horrible or something to be ashamed of, however the very idea "The best way to turn this team around is to not do so well my first two seasons" is the very definition of tanking.

Some may call it soft tanking or whatever. Yeah you aren't playing Catchers at SS, but you have accepted in your mind that winning too many games will not be beneficial. Therefore you don't put the best effort into winning at the BL level which, again, is the very definition of tanking.

For clarity I am not calling YOU a tanker, you seem to be a very competent owner.

I am just pointing out that when you concede winning at the BL level for the betterment of the future, you are tanking that season. Period.

Yeah, I agree that if someone gives up and tries not to win is a tanker. With my example of my taking over a bad team I had every intention of trying to win. I signed FA's that were ML quality, even a type A. I promoted those that I could from my minors and I even made trades to acquire younger talent that could play at the ML level. I got triggered by the tanking assumption because it seems that a lot of people try to make people out to be tankers or say they tanked because they believe in their minds that they could have done better in a situation. Hell, they have a win prediction in that world every season and I never predicted 50-55 wins.. I hate losing, but in that particular moment I had to figure out the best course to get that team off the bottom and that was by not taking big contracts and signing what I could to be as competitive as I could have in that time.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/29/2012 5:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/21/2012 8:10:00 AM (view original):
It's the internet.  I don't "know" anyone.   How am I to know if RL got in the way or they were simply tanking?  Hit the MWR or move on.   I offer anyone removed for missing the MWR an opportunity to re-apply after skipping a season.   That way, intentional or not, they don't benefit from winning 35 games.

This.  

You say "I'm doing my best" on your way to consecutive 50 win seasons.   Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.   How am I supposed to know anything beyond two consecutive 110 loss seasons?

You can't possible know unless you track all my FA signings, all my trades in those two seasons and all my promotions. All of that combined with who was available in FA I could sign without strapping the team to a big contract.

Fair enough.   Some people can't keep up.   I don't want them in my worlds either.  They lower expectations for everyone else.

"Oh, it's OK for him to lose 220 games but not me?  I don't think so."   Then the tanking starts.

In an attempt to win more in season 14, I tried to acquire ML Pitching thinking it would help. I even traded two of my best prospects to get it done.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/29/2012 5:30:00 PM (view original):
Fair enough.   Some people can't keep up.   I don't want them in my worlds either.  They lower expectations for everyone else.

"Oh, it's OK for him to lose 220 games but not me?  I don't think so."   Then the tanking starts.

This.

The owner dropping 110 in consecutive seasons starts the race to the bottom.  Doesn't matter if it's intentional or not.  The ball is rolling for someone else.

Posted by mchalesarmy on 8/29/2012 5:33:00 PM (view original):
I think spending wisely and being realistic with expectations isn't a bad thing at all.

I was addressing the quote which said "sometimes the best way to build a team is to have a couple of bad seasons"

To me that is blatant tanking.

Again I am not saying you are wrong in your assessment, but it IS tanking.

I am truly impressed with owners that do rebuilds without tanking.

It seems difficult to improve a .500 team if you are constantly geting the 20th pick in the draft every year. Those guys aren't going to boost the club too much. Sometimes the FA market sucks. So what CAN you do?
 
IDK, I have been fortunate that I had decent talent on both of the teams I run.

Some people think that the end all be all of tanking is just having bad records. Tanking is not a couple of bad seasons, tanking is blatantly TRYING to lose. In my case it's easy to see I made trades that "Tankers" don't make if they are trying to lose at the ML level. I would not have traded 2 good prospects for 2 ML SP's if I wanted to lose. Same with signing a Type A FA and promoting my younger guys. Season 13 was bad, but season 14 I was trying to improve the team.

That's your definition of tanking.   It doesn't include "sometimes the best way to build a team is to have a couple of bad seasons".   My definition of tanking does "count" those "bad seasons" against you regardless of circumstances.

Goes back to this:
Fair enough.   Some people can't keep up.   I don't want them in my worlds either.  They lower expectations for everyone else.
"Oh, it's OK for him to lose 220 games but not me?  I don't think so."   Then the tanking starts.


IOW, the world doesn't stop turning because you failed.   Keep up or jump off.

You don't have to blatantly try to lose to tank. Benign indifference to improving the ML team, keeping good players in the minors because you're not ready to make a real effort to win and any other steps (or non-steps) to quietly make it easier for your team to win fewer games is tanking. My opinion, of course. Obviously yours is different. But that's why I like worlds with credible MWR; a losing owner is removed whether he was tanking or just imcompetent.

It's kind of funny/sad when people defend their ****** seasons.   Here goes:

Moonlight Graham

ROC Rage

17

$92.9M

65-97 (.401)

4

Earned it.  Made some 5 year signings in S13 to make a run for 4 years.  Knew all along I'd suck balls in S17 when those 5th years came due.   Started a run of 71-83 wins bog that I can't climb out of.   Ugh.

Cooperstown

CHR Charge

10

$85.6M

65-97 (.401)

3

Earned it.   I was having a dispute over WC bannings because someone who I refused to let join a world I commish dug 7 pages deep into the WC to find me saying something vaguely offensive.  Without an acceptably outcome, I was done with WifS.   That team was in the pre-season and I didn't want to bog the next owner down with big contracts.  So I sat out FA.   I started applying band-aids to that team when WifS and I agreed that their policy was bullshit.  I've managed to win the division and make the playoffs as a WC a few times since but I've not gotten back to the 90+ win teams I was throwing out there.

Those are my two worst full seasons.  I could have benefitted greatly from "a couple of bad seasons" in both of those worlds.  But that's not how I play because I consider that tanking.

Posted by joshkvt on 8/29/2012 6:20:00 PM (view original):
You don't have to blatantly try to lose to tank. Benign indifference to improving the ML team, keeping good players in the minors because you're not ready to make a real effort to win and any other steps (or non-steps) to quietly make it easier for your team to win fewer games is tanking. My opinion, of course. Obviously yours is different. But that's why I like worlds with credible MWR; a losing owner is removed whether he was tanking or just imcompetent.

Exactly, MWR are great but there should also be a consensus as to if people truly believe you're tanking or not. if the other owners SEE what you were doing and can vouch for you then that's one thing but if those owners can't back up what you did and and think it's tanking then you go.


As for "Keeping up" I am sure I can keep up with the best HBD owners with no problem... No reason for me to worry myself over that. In fact I would take any challenge set in front of me to prove that.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/29/2012 6:44:00 PM (view original):

It's kind of funny/sad when people defend their ****** seasons.   Here goes:

Moonlight Graham

ROC Rage

17

$92.9M

65-97 (.401)

4

Earned it.  Made some 5 year signings in S13 to make a run for 4 years.  Knew all along I'd suck balls in S17 when those 5th years came due.   Started a run of 71-83 wins bog that I can't climb out of.   Ugh.

Cooperstown

CHR Charge

10

$85.6M

65-97 (.401)

3

Earned it.   I was having a dispute over WC bannings because someone who I refused to let join a world I commish dug 7 pages deep into the WC to find me saying something vaguely offensive.  Without an acceptably outcome, I was done with WifS.   That team was in the pre-season and I didn't want to bog the next owner down with big contracts.  So I sat out FA.   I started applying band-aids to that team when WifS and I agreed that their policy was bullshit.  I've managed to win the division and make the playoffs as a WC a few times since but I've not gotten back to the 90+ win teams I was throwing out there.

Those are my two worst full seasons.  I could have benefitted greatly from "a couple of bad seasons" in both of those worlds.  But that's not how I play because I consider that tanking.

That's fine, you can have your opinion. And you can play however it is you choose to play. But not everyone is going to play to your standards and not everyone has to. There is a reason I enjoy the worlds I play in, a lot of veteran owners in the 3 main worlds but none of them claim their opinion is gospel.

Tom you have nothing to prove to anyone.

However YOU plainly stated ""sometimes the best way to build a team is to have a couple of bad seasons".

So you are planning on not giving your best to the BL squad for a couple of seasons.

Most people would agree that is at least soft tanking.

Some people are fine with that others are not, who cares.

Everybody has a right to their opinion, but you can't say what you said and then claim " I'm not tanking"

Posted by mchalesarmy on 8/29/2012 7:43:00 PM (view original):
Tom you have nothing to prove to anyone.

However YOU plainly stated ""sometimes the best way to build a team is to have a couple of bad seasons".

So you are planning on not giving your best to the BL squad for a couple of seasons.

Most people would agree that is at least soft tanking.

Some people are fine with that others are not, who cares.

Everybody has a right to their opinion, but you can't say what you said and then claim " I'm not tanking"

I understand I don't have to prove anything to anyone. I am a damn good owner in this game. I never said I didn't give my best to my ML squads in those two particular seasons. After taking over a terrible team I did not see any point in signing huge FA contracts just to get stellar performers on my team. I signed ML guys to fill gaps and fielded the best possible teams I could field from FA's and promotions. I just don't think having a couple bad seasons indicates tanking unless you know all the factors the owner was dealing with.

Thanks for giving me permission to have an opinion, tom.  That's very generous of you.

As for you "keeping up" with the best owners in HBD, I present this:

Cooperstown	SA Psychosis	12	$82.2M	84-78 (.519)	2	-
Cooperstown	SA Psychosis	13	$90.0M	63-99 (.389)	4	-

I don't call that "keeping up".