Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 10/2/2012 1:34:00 PM (view original):
No out is productive. Some outs are slightly less ****** than other outs.
I think it was Baltimore about 3 days ago.

Bunt moved runners to 2nd/3rd.   Next batter tied the game with a single.   Baltimore won in extra innings.

****** out?
Last night.

Ellsbury scores on a Pedroia double in the first inning.   Nava grounds out to 1B to move Pedroia to third for the 1st out.   Pedroia scores on a sac fly.   Next batter makes third out. 

****** out?
10/3/2012 9:43 AM
tecwrg
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While, of course, making the playoffs is a desireable ending to a 162 game season, a mediocre team winning a weak division is a fluke.

It's borderline retarded to regard a 78-84 fluke team as being more "successful" than a 90-72 team, just because they played in a significantly weaker division.
10/3/2012 9:49 AM
MikeT23
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Can teams beat teams not on their schedule?    Can teams come in first over teams not in their division?   Would that 78 win team not be allowed to sell playoff tickets?   Did the '81 Reds sell playoff tickets?

You play the cards you're dealt.  

10/3/2012 10:05 AM (edited)
1899_spiders
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To put Cabrera's batting title chances in perspective, if he went 0 for 5, and Trout 4 for 5, Cabrera would still win it.
10/3/2012 11:01 AM
bad_luck
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I still don't see how this is relevant to the MVP. The Angels won 89 games and the Tigers won 87. That one team made the playoffs and the other didn't is a fluke in the division alignment, not the result of one player being more valuable than the other.

Even if we suspend reality for a minute and say OK, that isn't a retarded way to break a tie, we'd have to be at a tie in the first place. The only way you could argue that Trout and Cabrera are tied for the MVP race is to COMPLETELY ignore base running and defense.
10/3/2012 11:02 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 10/3/2012 11:02:00 AM (view original):
I still don't see how this is relevant to the MVP. The Angels won 89 games and the Tigers won 87. That one team made the playoffs and the other didn't is a fluke in the division alignment, not the result of one player being more valuable than the other.

Even if we suspend reality for a minute and say OK, that isn't a retarded way to break a tie, we'd have to be at a tie in the first place. The only way you could argue that Trout and Cabrera are tied for the MVP race is to COMPLETELY ignore base running and defense.
That's still the old school vs. new school way of thinking.

Old school: batting average and RBI's are excellent metrics to use to judge performance.
New school: WAR (specifically, oWAR and dWAR) rocks!

And I just noticed this: at baseball-reference.com, they use a WAR of 8+ as a rule of thumb for "MVP quality" season.

Cabrera's WAR is 6.9
Trout's WAR is 10.7
10/3/2012 11:30 AM
bad_luck
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But doesn't the old school love defense and base running?
10/3/2012 11:33 AM
tecwrg
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No, not really.  Old school is the triple crown categories for hitter.  And the pitching triple crown categories (Wins, ERA, strikeouts) for pitchers.
10/3/2012 11:37 AM
Jtpsops
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Cabrera also played an essentially new position everyone expected him to bomb at and he held his own
10/3/2012 11:37 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 10/3/2012 11:37:00 AM (view original):
No, not really.  Old school is the triple crown categories for hitter.  And the pitching triple crown categories (Wins, ERA, strikeouts) for pitchers.
I guess you're right. But even old school guys should understand the importance of defense.
10/3/2012 11:43 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by Jtpsops on 10/3/2012 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Cabrera also played an essentially new position everyone expected him to bomb at and he held his own
But he was still less valuable that Trout in the field.
10/3/2012 11:44 AM
MikeT23
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You're a WC guy, BL.   Sounds like you have a dog in this fight.

I could care less about either of them.   I openly rooted for MC to be a monumental flop at 3B.   I dislike DET because they eliminated my team last year.

IOW, I can look at this objectively.    You, obviously, cannot.

10/3/2012 11:53 AM
bad_luck
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I hate the Angels. I'm a Dodgers fan. The Tigers are one of my favorite AL teams.

Objectively, Cabrera was slightly more valuable on offense this year. Objectively, Trout was significantly more valuable on the base paths this year. Objectively, the difference between Trout and Cabrera in the field was even larger than the difference between them on the base paths.

If, as you say, you are looking at this objectively, I question your eyesight.
10/3/2012 11:59 AM
Jtpsops
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Detroit and Anaheim have each knocked the Skanks out twice in the past ten years. Enough with your biased Tiger hatred!!
10/3/2012 12:01 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by bad_luck on 10/3/2012 11:59:00 AM (view original):
I hate the Angels. I'm a Dodgers fan. The Tigers are one of my favorite AL teams.

Objectively, Cabrera was slightly more valuable on offense this year. Objectively, Trout was significantly more valuable on the base paths this year. Objectively, the difference between Trout and Cabrera in the field was even larger than the difference between them on the base paths.

If, as you say, you are looking at this objectively, I question your eyesight.
This may come as a shock to you but MVP voters weigh offense a lot more heavily than defense.
10/3/2012 12:03 PM
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Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP Topic
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