THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!! Topic

You have at least one religious viewpoint, as you've expressed it here ("I don't believe in god").

If you're honest with yourself, you probably have others as well. If you were to describe your views on other tenets common to more than one religion, it's highly unlikely that you have no opinion whatsoever on those topics.

In fact, you express another religiously oriented opinion on one of those topics right here ("I have no idea how the universe came to be"). That's a second viewpoint which helps define your religious identity. Combine these two with other opinions and that will tell you what religion you identify with.

For example, the idea you don't believe in god is a concept of atheism, but the idea you don't know how the universe came to be seems to be something of an agnostic viewpoint. Maybe they mean something different to you, though - but they still mean SOMETHING which helps define your religious identity.

I think people get too confused on what it means to "be religious". If you have religious opinions, then you're religious. You can't separate the religion from opinions about religious issues.

It's the same as if you have political opinions, then you're politically minded. You can't separate the politics from opinions about political issues.
12/17/2012 3:39 PM
the idea you don't believe in god is a concept of atheism

No, that is the one and only concept of atheism.

If you have religious opinions, then you're religious


One, that is completely untrue. Two, atheism is a lack of belief in god. You are including that as a religious opinion. So, to use your analogy, if someone says, "I hate politics" and doesn't vote, then they are political minded because they have an opinion on politics.

Again, this is ridiculous. You've created a bar for the definition of religion that is so low that everyone clears it. Then, using that insanely broad definition, you've argued that the absence of religion in government is, in fact, a government endorsement of religion.
12/17/2012 4:20 PM (edited)
No, that is the one and only concept of atheism.


Perhaps it is the one and only concept CENTRAL TO ALL atheists, but it is not the only religious concept found among atheists.

Two, atheism is a lack of belief in god. You are including that as a religious opinion. So, to use your analogy, if someone says, "I hate politics" and doesn't vote, then they are political minded because they have an opinion on politics.

Any opinion on the matter is still an opinion on the matter, regardless of whether it is like, dislike, or whatever. You can't just say you don't have an opinion when you do.
You've created a bar for the definition of religion that is so low that everyone clears it.

No. Everyone with an opinion on the topic "clears the bar", which is a logical conclusion. The only way you can argue that you don't have an opinion on religious matters (or political matters, or sports matters, or whatever) is to not have an opinion at all.

You cannot logically argue that because you disagree with something or don't like something that you therefore also do not have an opinion on that same something. Clearly you DO then have an opinion - you simply disagree with it or dislike it. 

To wit: You cannot logically say that your opinion "I don't believe in god" is not, in fact, an opinion about god when it clearly is. Since god is a religious topic, you therefore have an opinion on a religious topic.

I'm simply taking that one step further and stating that the combination of your opinions on religious matters form your religious identity - and yes, I believe everyone has a religious identity of some variety unless they somehow simply have no opinion whatsoever on the topic, which is highly improbable.
12/17/2012 4:50 PM
"You cannot logically say that your opinion "I don't believe in god" is not, in fact, an opinion about god when it clearly is. Since god is a religious topic, you therefore have an opinion on a religious topic."

No one is arguing that that isn't an OPINION. But simply having an opinion on a religious topic does not make you religious.

For example:

If Bill says, "I hate all religions. I think they are terrible, hateful, murderous, insane, idiot collectors. I wish I could kill everyone in every religion and then **** on their graves"

That is a religious subject. Bill has an opinion on that religious subject. But no sane person would consider Bill religious.

12/17/2012 5:10 PM
No one is arguing that that isn't an OPINION. But simply having an opinion on a religious topic does not make you religious.


Having an opinion on any religious topic means you have some sort of religious identity. The combination of your opinions on religious matters can be used to determine what religion your views align with the most. You don't need to be an "official member" or "belong to" that religion or any other in order to discern which of your beliefs line up with those of which religion. If, for example, you say you don't believe in god, that lines up most with an atheist religion. That doesn't necessarily mean you are atheist, but simply that you have one belief that lines up with those of atheists. The combination of all of your religious opinions will tell you what religion you most identify with.

My point in all of this is that you can't offer an opinion (or more than one) on a religious matter and then claim to also have no religious identity, because one can be discerned from your opinion. So you are religious if you have an opinion, whether you want to think of yourself that way or not.
If Bill says, "I hate all religions. I think they are terrible, hateful, murderous, insane, idiot collectors. I wish I could kill everyone in every religion and then **** on their graves"
That is a religious subject. Bill has an opinion on that religious subject. But no sane person would consider Bill religious.
The problem is you are thinking of "religious" in the way you are conditioned to think of it rather than simply using the term for what it is.

Bill's opinion is religious, and therefore he has a religious viewpoint, and I'm sure there are some religions which line up with this viewpoint that his religious identity (the part of it we know, which you describe here) would line up with. It could be said that he is of that religion, even if he personally doesn't want to identify with any religion.

There is a difference between what you identify with, belong to, or are a member of and what your opinions show your religious identity to be. They are often the same, but you can obviously express opinions which don't line up with anything that has to do with the religion you claim to be (people do it all the time).

My point is that your real religious identity is the sum of your religious opinions and NOT what you claim to be (because I can claim to be anything, but my honest opinions will show how I really feel).


12/18/2012 8:35 AM
"Having an opinion on any religious topic means you have some sort of religious identity"

Having an opinion on a political topic does NOT make one a politician.

Having an opinion on breast cancer, abortion, or any other woman's health topic does NOT make one a woman.

Having an opinion on who should play QB for the New York Jets does NOT make you a member of the Jets front office or coaching staff.

And . . .

Having an opinion on a religious topic does NOT necessarily make you religious.
12/18/2012 8:52 AM
Having an opinion on a political topic does NOT make one a politician.

No, but it does mean you have some sort of political identity. The sum total of all of your honest political opinions would tell what that identity is specifically. However, we could use some or all of those opinions to make a broad or general statement about which political groups share your views. That would be your true political identity. You may or may not actually consider that your political affiliation, and you may or may not actually "belong to" that particular group. Again, what you say you are and what your opinions say you are might be the same and they might be different.
Having an opinion on a religious topic does NOT necessarily make you religious.

Your analogy is off. If you wanted this part of it to line up with the rest of your statements, you would have said:

Having an opinion on a religious topic does not make you a minister or religious leader.

That would have worked with the analogy and would have been true.

Having an opinion on a religious topic DOES, however, mean you have a religious identity, as I've already explained. You can't separate the opinion from the identity, even if you really wish you could.
12/18/2012 10:21 AM
What if you don't believe in a higher power and do think that is a religion?   What if you and a group of friends gather at 10 AM on every Sunday and discuss why there is no god? 
12/18/2012 10:21 AM
 If, for example, you say you don't believe in god, that lines up most with an atheist religion. That doesn't necessarily mean you are atheist, but simply that you have one belief that lines up with those of atheists.

No, that's exactly what that means. There is only one definition/characteristic of atheism--the non-belief in god. 

Bill's opinion is religious, and therefore he has a religious viewpoint,

Having a religious viewpoint does not make Bill religious or a member of a religion. Everyone falls somewhere on the religious spectrum, but that spectrum includes "Not Religious."

12/18/2012 11:24 AM
No, that's exactly what that means. There is only one definition/characteristic of atheism--the non-belief in god.

Even if that's true (and I don't think it is),  that does not mean it's your only religious opinion. If you have any other religious opinions, then your religious identity may not be completely aligned with atheist viewpoints.

In fact, most people's religious identities do not line up entirely with the belief systems of one and only one particular religion. This is why major religions have many different sects or divisions.
Having a religious viewpoint does not make Bill religious or a member of a religion. Everyone falls somewhere on the religious spectrum, but that spectrum includes "Not Religious."

Bill doesn't need to be a member of a religion to be religious, as you admit here when you say that "everyone falls somewhere on the religious spectrum".

However, the only people who would qualify as "not religious" are those who honestly have no opinion whatsoever on any religious issues. The moment you have an opinion on religious issues, you can no longer qualify as "not religious" because clearly you have decided to have some religious viewpoint.

You can't offer religious opinions and claim to "not religious". In fact, you can't offer opinions on any subject and then claim to have nothing to do with that subject. That just doesn't work. You want it to work here because you want to think you are "without religion" when in fact you are probably of your own religion instead of a major religion.

12/18/2012 11:39 AM
Even if that's true (and I don't think it is)

How could that not be true? The only definition of atheism is the non-belief in god(s).

If you have any other religious opinions, then your religious identity may not be completely aligned with atheist viewpoints.

There is only one atheist viewpoint--the non-belief in god.

Bill doesn't need to be a member of a religion to be religious, as you admit here when you say that "everyone falls somewhere on the religious spectrum".

Bill is not a member of any religion.




12/18/2012 11:56 AM
How could that not be true? The only definition of atheism is the non-belief in god(s).

That may be the only tenet of atheism itself, but obviously its not the only religious viewpoint held by most atheists, many of who express a variety of other views, including for some the idea that they are offended by and/or want to ban religious symbols and the like from government property.
Bill is not a member of any religion.
Correct, and as we've discussed multiple times, he does not need to be "a member of" any religion in order to have a religious identity.
12/18/2012 12:35 PM
Posted by bistiza on 12/18/2012 12:35:00 PM (view original):
How could that not be true? The only definition of atheism is the non-belief in god(s).

That may be the only tenet of atheism itself, but obviously its not the only religious viewpoint held by most atheists, many of who express a variety of other views, including for some the idea that they are offended by and/or want to ban religious symbols and the like from government property.
Bill is not a member of any religion.
Correct, and as we've discussed multiple times, he does not need to be "a member of" any religion in order to have a religious identity.
Perfect.

Bill is an atheist (he doesn't believe in god). Bringing this back around to the original point, atheism is not a religion.


12/18/2012 12:56 PM
Perfect. Bill is an atheist (he doesn't believe in god). Bringing this back around to the original point, atheism is not a religion.

Not believing in god is a religious opinion, which means it indicates the person has a religious identity. Unless we know of that person's other religious opinions, then the one opinion we know of (he doesn't believe in god) shows his religious identity most closely matches up with the RELIGION of atheism, which is the group of people who believe exactly what you state this Bill believes.

I've told you multiple times it does not require membership or belonging for your beliefs to be closely associated with a religion, such as atheism. You are what your religious identity says you are, not what you claim to belong to or be a member of or what you tell everyone. I can tell everyone anything I want but my religious identity is based upon my honest religious opinions.

Atheism is a religion. Whether you are part of that religion has nothing to do with membership and everything to do with whether your honest religious opinions line up with the central tenets (or as you say, central tenet) of the religion.
12/18/2012 1:21 PM (edited)
But atheism isn't a religion. That's where your entire argument falls apart.


12/18/2012 1:22 PM
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