Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Why ignore something that tells a part of the story?    I don't think anyone is saying it tells the whole story but it is worthy of a paragraph that is the book of the game.

This.

What does it tell you that other stats don't tell you better?

Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2012 2:40:00 PM (view original):
About as useful as FIP.

Exactly.  FIP removes something like 75% of a game yet tells the story?    Yeah, OK.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Why ignore something that tells a part of the story?    I don't think anyone is saying it tells the whole story but it is worthy of a paragraph that is the book of the game.

This.

What does it tell you that other stats don't tell you better?

Like what?  How many strikeouts he had?   How many batters he walked?  How many homers he gave up?

It tells me he was on the mound when the game was decided in a positive manner.   I don't care if he walked 11 but pitched well enough to get the win(which is the object of the game).  You know, those fat guys in uniforms know a little more about the game than we do.    That fat guy left him in there for a reason.  

I'll repeat, wins aren't the be all to end all for pitchers.  But they give you an indication of their effectiveness.

I'll go back to CC.   I've said, many times, that he's not an ace.  But he takes the ball every 5th day and you pretty much know he's going to give you 7.   That allows the manager to do things with his bullpen that he normally can't do.   There is a lot of value in that.  Because CC keeps his big *** on the mound when he gives up 5 thru 7, he sometimes gets a "cheap" win.   But he contributed, heavily, to that win. 

Heavily. Heh.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2012 1:50:00 PM (view original):
And pitchers don't contribute to that?

Finally.

Pitchers do contribute to team wins and losses but the pitcher W/L record doesn't give us any idea as to what degree they contributed.

You know except when a pitcher has a bunch of wins for a bad team.   Then we can kind assume he had a good year.   Unless, of course, you've found that fictional 16-10 pitcher for a sub .500 team that actually had a bad season. 

So, under the best case scenario, pitcher win/loss record can allow us to "kind [of] assume that he had a good year."

Awesome.

Seems like a very useful stat.

This.

Best case scenario, W/L sort of, kind of, maybe, gives you an idea of how he pitched...assuming you know something about the team he played on.

Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 

Then why use W/L?

If it doesn't tell you anything useful, why bother? There are a ton of better stats available to evaluate pitchers.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 2:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 10:44:00 AM (view original):
To those who picked "worthless" - your team has a big game, and your options are 2 pitchers.  You have A) 14-14, 3.20 ERA or B) 20-8, 3.35 ERA.  Who are you picking?

...

Why are you ignoring me?

And replace ERA with FIP.

Historically speaking, pitchers with a bunch of wins had good years, pitchers with a bunch of losses had bad years.   We've got over 100 years of data on this.  Do I need to link a website for you?

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 

Then why use W/L?

If it doesn't tell you anything useful, why bother? There are a ton of better stats available to evaluate pitchers.

Jeez.  It does tell you something useful.   The pitcher was effective enough to stay on the mound and get the win.  The fat guy in the uniform, the one that knows more baseball than we'll ever know, decided to keep him out there.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 

Then why use W/L?

If it doesn't tell you anything useful, why bother? There are a ton of better stats available to evaluate pitchers.

Jeez.  It does tell you something useful.   The pitcher was effective enough to stay on the mound and get the win.  The fat guy in the uniform, the one that knows more baseball than we'll ever know, decided to keep him out there.

If you've ever watched a game, and I can't be sure you have, there is inevitably a guy who went 0-4 with 3 bullets right at someone and another guy who went 1-3 with two horrible looking strkeouts and a bloop single.    We know who really hit the ball into bad luck and who had a **** day. 

Same applies to a pitcher.  Maybe he gave up 5 runs in 6 innings but pitched pretty well.   That fat guy in the uniform, the one that knows more baseball than we'll ever know, was watching the game and decided to leave him on the mound simply because he wasn't getting hit hard.   And he gets the win when his line reads 6 IP, 5 ER, 9 H, 2 W, 5 K.    The win should tell you something even if you can't see it in the stat line.  

Of course, you have to accept that the fat guy in the uniform actually knows baseball better than you and I'm not sure you can accept such a thing.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 3:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 

Then why use W/L?

If it doesn't tell you anything useful, why bother? There are a ton of better stats available to evaluate pitchers.

Jeez.  It does tell you something useful.   The pitcher was effective enough to stay on the mound and get the win.  The fat guy in the uniform, the one that knows more baseball than we'll ever know, decided to keep him out there.

Wouldn't ERA and IP tell you those things much much better than a W/L record?

If a pitcher goes 12-7. what kind of year did he have? Was it better than the guy that went 11-12?

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Why ignore something that tells a part of the story?    I don't think anyone is saying it tells the whole story but it is worthy of a paragraph that is the book of the game.

This.

Still this.