High-Capacity Assault Weapons Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 4:18:00 PM (view original):
And this is why I hate these discussions so quickly after something like this.

One evil, crazy man.  Two double barrel shotguns.  A bag of shotgun shells   One teacher, one teacher's aide.   22 six year olds with one way out.    WTF do you think the end result is?

Make shotguns illegal?
tec, if you'd like to field this one, I'd be interested in your response.   badluck seems to have understood his dumbassery.   I'll listen to yours now.
12/18/2012 7:55 PM
mchalesarmy
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I will not read through 11 pages , so I apologize if these comments are redundant.

There are a few things at play here.

As to the OP, I completely agree. There can be no legitimate reason for any private citizen  to own an automatic assault rifle.

As I'm sure has been mentioned, making them illegal will NOT stop criminals from gaining access to them. While that is most certainly true, it WILL stop deranged individuals like Adam Lanza from having them. Adam Lanza nor his mother most probably would never go on the black market to buy a banned weapon. He/his mom, bought legal firearms. That fact alone should bring some people around to more reasonableness/responsibility on the gun control issue.

Another thing seems to be that there was every indication that this guy was a danger to himself and others. Why in the world would his mother buy guns and assault weapons AND bring him to the firing range? What could possibly be a good reason for either? He most likely should have been locked up and not living with his mother at all. I haven't read anywhere yet as to why that wasn't the case.

I think this incident sheds light on quite a few problems that could be addressed that would lessen the likelihood of similar incidences.

I also completely agree with Swamp's comments concerning the Aurora DKR shooter. Most criminals are looking for easy targets and do not want to run into an armed citizen. Having said that, Tec's response is dead on. If he wasn't toting an automatic assault rifle the damage would have been much less severe, and that's all this discussion should be focused on.
12/18/2012 7:57 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 7:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 4:18:00 PM (view original):
And this is why I hate these discussions so quickly after something like this.

One evil, crazy man.  Two double barrel shotguns.  A bag of shotgun shells   One teacher, one teacher's aide.   22 six year olds with one way out.    WTF do you think the end result is?

Make shotguns illegal?
tec, if you'd like to field this one, I'd be interested in your response.   badluck seems to have understood his dumbassery.   I'll listen to yours now.
I'll answer for you.   2 dead adults, killed first, and 22 dead six year olds.    NO ONE in an elementay school is running towards the sound of a gun.   And no one is leaving that room unless the shooter allows them to. 
12/18/2012 7:59 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 7:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/18/2012 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/18/2012 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 2:16:00 PM (view original):
For tec since he called my suggestion that semi-automatics are needed by hunters to protect the animals being hunted a "WTF? moment:

The AR-15, one of the rifles that became an assault weapon with the passage of the AWB because of its physical characteristics, is a .223 caliber. The .223 is smaller and less lethal than many rifle calibers. In most states, a .223 is not permitted for hunting big game because of the caliber’s ineffectiveness at bringing down animals such as deer and elk.

Hunters do look for a quick kill and most states agree that wounded animals running around in the woods is bad business.

Being humane to animals is a very civilized and admirable thing.

In terms of priorities, I would rank it lower than trying to minimize the number of deaths that might be caused by a deranged gunman intent on carrying out the next Newtown.
Drive a car full of explosives and gasoline into a crowded eatery.    Same result. 

When was the last time that happened in the U.S.?  Oklahoma City in 1995?  (I know, a truck and a federal building rather than a car and an eatery, but same concept.)

How many incidents, and how people have been killed in mass shootings with HCAW since then?

 

How many people have been killed by a drunk driver?

How many people have died of cancer?

How many people have died from liver disease?

How many people have died from a handgun?

You sound like a woman overreacting to a horrible tragedy.   If you want to "solve" the problem, don't focus on a single incident. 

Columbine.  Virginia Tech.  Tuscon.  Aurora.  Newtown.  Just to name a few.  It's hardly focusing on a single incident.  

Maybe Newtown is just the tipping point.

12/18/2012 8:44 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 7:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 7:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 4:18:00 PM (view original):
And this is why I hate these discussions so quickly after something like this.

One evil, crazy man.  Two double barrel shotguns.  A bag of shotgun shells   One teacher, one teacher's aide.   22 six year olds with one way out.    WTF do you think the end result is?

Make shotguns illegal?
tec, if you'd like to field this one, I'd be interested in your response.   badluck seems to have understood his dumbassery.   I'll listen to yours now.
I'll answer for you.   2 dead adults, killed first, and 22 dead six year olds.    NO ONE in an elementay school is running towards the sound of a gun.   And no one is leaving that room unless the shooter allows them to. 
And your point is . . . ?

Because you can kill a lot of people with shotguns, no need to discuss assault weapons?

What's next . . . just legalizing RPG's because they can kill a lot of people too?


12/18/2012 8:48 PM
MikeT23
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Odd.  I thought my point was pretty clear.          People are having another "OMG!!!  Assault weapons!!!" moment.      If you're going to have politicians jumping thru hoops to appease the public, at least have a defined goal in mind.   Close up the loose ends, don't just scream "OMG!!!  Assault weapons!!!!"
12/18/2012 9:03 PM
MikeT23
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I'll attempt to be more clear.    The end result of Friday's massacre could have been achieved without a Bushmaster .223 weapon.   A legally purchased shotgun used for hunting would have been just as effective.   In fact, I'd argue that it would have been more effective.  So, is your goal to eliminate the possibility, or at least reduce the chances, of another similar incident?   If so, you need to explore the ban of shotguns if banning guns is your suggestion. 
12/18/2012 9:09 PM
tecwrg
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I'm just asking the question: why does Joe Citizen need an assault weapon?

You've been the only one to try to justify them with reasons that include:
  • What if I get attacked by a wild boar in my backyard?
  • What if I get attacked by a grizzly bear in Montana?
  • What if I want to go deer hunting?
I'm disregarding swamp's crazy-*** reasons because he's just being swamp.

12/18/2012 9:14 PM
MikeT23
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Seems you and I have a different idea of what constitutes "assault weapon".     I do not want a Bushmaster .223 for any of those things.    Nor do I want a single shot musket. 

What is your objective?
12/18/2012 9:18 PM
tecwrg
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Let me attempt to be more clear.  You are now focusing on a single incident (Newtown) in which a similar level of death could theoretically be inflicted with more "conventional" weaponry other than HCAW.  

Are you going to contend that ALL mass shooting incidents can achieve the same number of casualties with conventional weaponry (i.e. a double barrel shotgun) as they can with high-capacity assault weapons (i.e. a Bushmaster .223)?

If not, then can you connect the dots to try to figure out what my "objective" might be?  Here's a hint . . . I've said it repeatedly in this thread.

If so, then I'll ask again in a slightly different way . . . why does Joe Citizen need an assault weapon (if convention weapons do the trick just fine)?
12/18/2012 9:36 PM
bad_luck
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He doesn't. Mike's argument is bullshit.
12/18/2012 9:47 PM
The Taint
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Posted by swamphawk22 on 12/18/2012 6:39:00 PM (view original):
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/10/did-colorado-shooter-single-out-cinemark-theater/

A new insight into the Aurora shooting...

There were multiple theaters close to the shooters house.

He didnt choose the closest.
He didnt choose the biggest
He didnt choose the one that would come up first in google

He did choose the only one that didnt allow people to carry!

He didnt want freedom loving citizens to stop him.
Were any of the other theatres showing midnight screenings of Batman? 

Also it is pretty much tied to the second closest in proximity.  A quarter mile seperates it from two and three.  Maybe it's the one he went to most frequently cause they had a badass popcorn salt bar.

Pure conjecture, until proof states otherwise.
12/18/2012 10:14 PM (edited)
furry_nipps
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 4:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by furry_nipps on 12/18/2012 3:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/18/2012 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/18/2012 12:32:00 PM (view original):
I imagine more people die from drunk driving than gunshot wounds.   Outlaw motor vehicles and alcohol?

I'd suggest those thinking they'll burn in hell for eternity are less likely to commit the sin that puts them there.    Bring prayer back to schools?
First question, no. That's not a reasonable restriction. But the police do set up DUI check points and the punishment for a simple DUI (no accident, injury, death etc) is fairly steep.

Second question, as someone who went to Catholic school for over ten years, I know that forcing kids to pray in school doesn't make them better people. But if you're OK with your kids being led in prayers from the Koran everyday, please call your representative and try to get the change made.
First, you can't just walk in a store and buy an assault weapon.  There are some pretty solid restrictions.   And some pretty steep punishments for illegal having guns.    Sound familiar?

Second, I assume you know everyone who ever prayed in school.  Quite the story you got there.   Try again.
I live in Oregon and just bought a gun yesterday. I was curious to how easy it would be so I went to wal mart. They had a pretty big selection of rifles with no questions asked, but I wanted something else. They told me 2 gun shops so I hit one up 2 blocks from my house that I didn't know existed. Walked in at 5:42 and walked out just shy of 6 PM with a simi auto gun. Just needed ID and finger prints
What kind of gun?
9MM pistol and a glock. They had over 5000 to choose from and they all came with the same standards of finger prints, filling out a sheet of paper and looking at my ID. I was pretty surprised at how easy it was. My address on ID wasn't vaild and they didn't need any proof that it was real and I did have a criminal record. I went in there more to find out what it takes to get a gun then actually getting one. I thought it was a process and such, but sense it was so easy I decided to get em.
12/18/2012 10:06 PM
moy23
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/18/2012 9:47:00 PM (view original):
He doesn't. Mike's argument is bullshit.
Mike is arguing that banning assault weapons would have little impact towards solving this issue, not that you shouldn't ban assault weapons.  He's right.  I just told you I can obtain illegal mercury tipped bullets and I have never even shot a gun in my life.  Gun enthusiasts can obtain illegal firearms as easily as drug addicts can get illegal drugs.  There is a ban on guns in school zones yet this lanza kid simply ignored the ban and shot up 26 'defenseless' people that abided by the ban.  How well did that ban work?  How well will an assault rifle ban work? 

Arguing that the death toll would have been less with a lesser gun is moot.  Its all speculation.  I could speculate the lunatic in newtown might have thought a hand gun wasn't enough and he would seek out explosives like timothy mcveigh (sp?) did.  Wait - bombs were banned back then, right? 


12/18/2012 10:27 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by moy23 on 12/18/2012 10:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/18/2012 9:47:00 PM (view original):
He doesn't. Mike's argument is bullshit.
Mike is arguing that banning assault weapons would have little impact towards solving this issue, not that you shouldn't ban assault weapons.  He's right.  I just told you I can obtain illegal mercury tipped bullets and I have never even shot a gun in my life.  Gun enthusiasts can obtain illegal firearms as easily as drug addicts can get illegal drugs.  There is a ban on guns in school zones yet this lanza kid simply ignored the ban and shot up 26 'defenseless' people that abided by the ban.  How well did that ban work?  How well will an assault rifle ban work? 

Arguing that the death toll would have been less with a lesser gun is moot.  Its all speculation.  I could speculate the lunatic in newtown might have thought a hand gun wasn't enough and he would seek out explosives like timothy mcveigh (sp?) did.  Wait - bombs were banned back then, right? 


Why does Joe Citizen need an assault weapon?
12/18/2012 10:45 PM
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