Posted by sergei91 on 6/5/2013 8:51:00 PM (view original):
i agree this current situation is not exactly the same as clemens, bonds, mitchell report. i'm just going by the results of going after high profile mlb players in court tho. barry was convicted of a felony, i believe. but since he was out of baseball at the time and his trainer wouldn't testify against him, he basically got off with no punishment. clemens went to trial and his lawyer made mcnamee out to be a scumbag even tho he had 'proof' against clemens. clemens walked, i believe.
can bud suspend braun, arod, etc? of course he can. and if he does it will be appealed. not sure the difference between a real court case and what an arbitrator needs to make a decision, but mlb's arbitor sure screwed them in the *** with braun last time.
if it comes down to it, the pa's lawyers will paint the 'doctor' as a lying pile of **** who is only naming names because mlb promised to help him not go to jail for selling illegal drugs. he's already had an interview and denied everything, he was never a real doctor, and from what i've read he's been in trouble before with the irs, etc. not to mention he probably burned/destroyed every piece of evidence he had once mlb came a calling

Everything else aside, MLB's arbitrator didn't really screw them with Braun, the guy who handled the sample did.

The standard for conviction is so much higher than what MLB will have to do - in a criminal case you have to convince 12 people that someone is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.  MLB has to convince one person without the "beyond all reasonable doubt" standard.  And again, if it's just this guy naming names with nothing to back it up, I completely agree this will never go anywhere.  And Mike could very well be right that even if he has more than just his word, it won't be any kind of smoking gun.  But there's really no point in speculating at this point - we'll find out soon enough.

"Hi, I'm Ryan Braun, NL MVP.   You may have heard about my high testosterone "problem" with MLB.  Got any HGH?"


Just don't see that.

Posted by AlCheez on 6/6/2013 8:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sergei91 on 6/5/2013 8:51:00 PM (view original):
i agree this current situation is not exactly the same as clemens, bonds, mitchell report. i'm just going by the results of going after high profile mlb players in court tho. barry was convicted of a felony, i believe. but since he was out of baseball at the time and his trainer wouldn't testify against him, he basically got off with no punishment. clemens went to trial and his lawyer made mcnamee out to be a scumbag even tho he had 'proof' against clemens. clemens walked, i believe.
can bud suspend braun, arod, etc? of course he can. and if he does it will be appealed. not sure the difference between a real court case and what an arbitrator needs to make a decision, but mlb's arbitor sure screwed them in the *** with braun last time.
if it comes down to it, the pa's lawyers will paint the 'doctor' as a lying pile of **** who is only naming names because mlb promised to help him not go to jail for selling illegal drugs. he's already had an interview and denied everything, he was never a real doctor, and from what i've read he's been in trouble before with the irs, etc. not to mention he probably burned/destroyed every piece of evidence he had once mlb came a calling

Everything else aside, MLB's arbitrator didn't really screw them with Braun, the guy who handled the sample did.

The standard for conviction is so much higher than what MLB will have to do - in a criminal case you have to convince 12 people that someone is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.  MLB has to convince one person without the "beyond all reasonable doubt" standard.  And again, if it's just this guy naming names with nothing to back it up, I completely agree this will never go anywhere.  And Mike could very well be right that even if he has more than just his word, it won't be any kind of smoking gun.  But there's really no point in speculating at this point - we'll find out soon enough.

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/5/2013 3:34:00 PM (view original):
The document says

A player who tests positive for a Performance Enhancing Substance, or otherwise violates the Program through the use or possession of a Performance Enhancing Substance, will be subject to the discipline set forth below.

Obviously this will never sink in for you, but occasionally it's worth fact-checking yourself before you post...

Even with all we think we know about the case so far, it is not going to be easy for MLB to prove the things it needs to prove to nail A-Rod and Ryan Braun and the alleged 18 others in its crosshairs.

As far as we know, they have no positive drug samples on any of these players, just some handwritten records from a man whose word is in serious question -- we know that he tried to pass himself off as a doctor -- and who, if the latest reports are to be believed, is desperate for money and willing to sell his story for the best possible deal.

That automatically casts doubt on anything Bosch tells anyone about anything, the same way Brian McNamee's story about Roger Clemens was forever tainted by a shady past and a clear resentment of the man he was testifying against.

Maybe Rodriguez is banking on that -- that Bosch is too disreputable a character to bring him down -- and that MLB's case will never convince an arbitrator, the same way a federal prosecutor could not convince a jury that Clemens should go down for perjury.

The real issue is baseball's attempt to suspend players for their association with a wellness clinic, without actual positive-test violations of the league's drug policy. Melky Cabrera, the one player linked to Biogenesis who has tested positive, already served his 50-game suspension. Unless documentation shows --assuming Bosch's documentation is better, say, than Brian McNamee's decade-old syringes and gauze in a Coke can -- that Cabrera was still using PEDs after his suspension last season, it seems inconceivable that baseball would be able to suspend him again for essentially discovering the source of the original offense.

Equally disturbing is that if Nelson Cruz or Gio Gonzalez or Alex Rodriguez or Cabrera (again) are to be suspended for soliciting Biogenesis, baseball will have to reconcile that punishment with the knowledge that each of those players beat the vaunted drug-testing program, for none failed a test.

Secondarily, Selig seems prepared to enter even murkier space. Without failed tests or other spectacular evidence from Bosch regarding PED use, baseball must decide if it is willing to suspend players simply for associating with disreputable organizations, the way the old, pre-union commissioners banned players and coaches (Leo Durocher) and retired players (Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle) for being associated with gambling. Having already lost one case on appeal because of failures in the chain of custody of evidence, for what exactly could baseball punish Braun?

One thing MLB seems determined to do is suspend multiple players twice for actions relating to the same offense, namely taking PEDs and then lying about not having taken them. Could that strategy work?

It's probably going to be extremely difficult. For one thing, baseball has never tried this. For another, the union will likely mount a hellacious challenge to that approach. More on this in a bit.

Melky Cabrera, Colon, and Grandal have all already served suspensions for violations of the league's drug policy. Is this kind of double penalty covered anywhere in the Joint Drug Agreement? If not, on what grounds would the league propose to have a double penalty (i.e., 100 games for first-time offenders rather than 50) stick?

This strategy could also become problematic. As Thurm explains, unless authenticated and verified Biogenesis documents link a previously suspended player to use, possession, sale, or distribution of PEDs separate from the drugs that had triggered earlier positive tests, a second suspension could amount to a second punishment for the same, initial violation. If MLB were to adopt the A-Rod–and–Braun approach, it could seek both the PED-use penalty and the lying penalty against Cabrera, Colon, and Grandal. All three have already been suspended once, and two more suspensions would equal three, which, according to MLB's drug policy, would trigger a lifetime ban. Since it's not at all clear if Cabrera, Colon, and Grandal violated the league's policy in an incident separate from the one for which they've already been nailed, there's an absurd scenario by which they could be forever stripped of their ability to play in the majors as a result of, essentially, a single transgression.