Posted by colonels19 on 4/17/2013 12:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by pepwaves on 4/16/2013 11:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 4/16/2013 11:46:00 PM (view original):
It is possible that at any given time dshook had 8 guys considering, for 4 spots...if he only lands 2, you're going to try to convince me that the fault/blame is to be placed on someone other than dshook?  C'mon...if you spread yourself too thin and your recruits get nabbed, that's just the game being played...recruit better.

So, you're saying dshook should have recruited better to make up for the collusive/cheating actions of one person using a $36,000 budget in D3?

C'mon man...

This is factually incorrect, and plus dshook had 6 NT games worth of bonus money to his credit as well

How is it factually incorrect? Just because one team didn't technically have a $36,000 budget... just one person?

Can you at least admit that the user in question violated the fair play guidelines and therefore, had an unfair advantage?

Posted by colonels19 on 4/17/2013 12:03:00 AM (view original):

Posted by pepwaves on 4/16/2013 11:58:00 PM (view original):
- "One person (regardless of account used) cannot control more than one team in the same world within the same conference or within 1,000 miles or less of one another. Violation of this rule will lead to a forced relocation or removal from one of the teams.

- "Collusion includes any act that supports bad, deceitful or illegal behavior agreed upon by two or more users or attempted by a single user. Here are a few examples:

• Discussing the pursuit of a recruit with another coach, including who is pursuing him and money that might have been spent.
• Sharing Future Stars Scouting (FSS) information between multiple teams."

- from WIS's Fair Play Guidelines

dshook probably could have recruited better, but that is not even be the point of all this. One person cheated and violated the above guidelines, and dshook lost recruits because of it. 

Not sure why you refuse to address this point colonels...

They never proved it was one person.

The collusion wasn't and can't be proven.  The fact that both giantslayer and samsampson filled 6 of 8 spots with legitimate players suggests that collusion was not afoot, and at the very least, there wasn't any intent to screw dshook.

According to dshook, CS ruled that it was one user (go back and look at his post in page 3). Doesn't matter if it can be proven... (which obviously it cannot be unless CS drives to the person's house and catches them in the act). Same computer = same user = same person...for all intents and purposes of an online game. 

Collusion is almost impossible to prove in any situation (fantasy sports, online games, etc.). But, that does NOT mean CS can't hand out punishments based on suspected collusion. Otherwise, why would they write the fair play guidelines and outline specific punishments?

Look, colonels, I get that you are a known contrarian so we are not going to agree on this. But, the user violated WIS's fair play guidelines, and that is a fact. 

Only thing I'll agree with you on is that dshook should post the CS responses verbatim. 

I really like Colonels idea about blind recruiting.  That would make it very interesting and solve our non-battling issues.  "It would be impossible to get everyone I want in that system on the cheap so that is a stupid idea"... that was laughable.   So is the threat of you guys leaving.  "Recruiting is more important than my life but I am going to quit because someone else got screwed when they tried to give out double the schollies they had."  That is hilarious.  I know crack whores who need their drug less than some of the guys on here.

I think you are missing the point though Colonels that the guy had two teams.  We should throw out everyone who has two teams in the same world but then that would be a lot of the "successful" coaches of the game.  I think Colonel's point (that he may not have made clear) is that the two teams didn't combine money, so the same thing could have happened even if it was two different coaches.  It wasn't though so I think something should be done.  At the same time, offering 8 scholarships when you have four is such a joke, I think turn about is fair play.  If you want to game the system, then don't whine when someone games you and if you need someone else to write down what is wrong and right for you in terms of morality, then just die with the rest of the baby-boomers.

Real Devil's advocate is that I fear there will be more of this to come unless something is done.  How hard it is to have two friends log in and screw over a program.  Even if it's not during the free sign-up, it cost's me twenty bucks to "solve" a problem?  To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if WIS did this themselves at some point (maybe now?) to drive out the low division dynasties which would in turn allow more new users to have earlier success. 

Ok, first let me say I love desenting opinions and appreciate what you are saying Colonels19. Sometimes you do get too close to a situation and it clouds your judgement. When I say there were six guys considering me, never did I have more than 4 considering me at one time. I would have recruited better, should I have known that one person was going to target my recruits with two teams, or at least the first six.

Here is the complete ticket. It was the 5:52pm EST post today that confirmed it is one person. Looks like it pasted twice. If you pay attention to the dates you should be able to follow it.

4/15/2013 2:53 PM	dshook30
I have what appears to be two new coaches targeting me and my recruits. ONLY my recruits. Both have eight open scholarships and have taken away 4 players from me in less than 24 hours. Potentially five as one of the teams has joined a battle I have been having since the opening cycle of recruiting. Could this be someone, or just one person targeting me? Is there recourse here for me? I have never had a walkon in my time at Bard, about 40 seasons and will get 3 or 4 THIS SEASON! I did post something in the forum about it. The teams are Union and Suny Geneseo.
4/15/2013 7:33 PM	Customer Support
Hi Don, Which users are you referring to?
4/15/2013 7:55 PM	dshook30
Its Union with giantslayer and SUNY Geneseo and samsampson. Since I sent this in, SUNY has jumped on the last guy who was only considering me. It seems real fishy. The only guys either has on their recruiting list are guys that have been considering me.
4/16/2013 3:05 PM	Customer Support
We've investigated this and we did not find anything suggesting that these two schools are targeting your recruits.
4/16/2013 4:09 PM	dshook30
So two teams take away the first six guys that were considering, three apiece and there is nothing suggesting that they have targeted me? I believe that it could be one person in control of both teams. Did you see if that was the case? I really find it hard to believe that this isn't nefarious. So, if Suny Geneseo doesn't sign anybody else and only takes 3 guys and gets 5 walkons and then doesn't renew, would that be evidence or it, or would you just believe it was a bad newbie not knowing what they were doing? Union has gotten four more recruits since this started. But, their first three were ALL guys that we considering me. Am I to believe that this is simply a coincidence? Forgive me, but I've recruited for 5 calendar years and nothing even remotely close to this has EVER happened to me. This screws the team I've had since 08. Completely screws it. So, please tell me if you looked into the two names being the same person.
4/16/2013 5:27 PM	dshook30
In thinking about my response, I rambled a bit. I am theorizing that it's one user with two teams. Why they would do it to me, I have no idea. I don't believe I have enemies on here. So that's why I'm asking what you checked or if you checked to see if they were using the same IP address or the credit card info was the same.
4/16/2013 5:52 PM	Customer Support
Don, We did thoroughly check out the situation and there wasn't any conclusive evidence that you were being targeted. We did confirm that it's the same user, and while there are aspects of the situation that seem strange, there isn't enough to conclude that he was targeting you specifically. Generally if that happens, there's a history of bad blood or something like that, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. This is an inexperienced user, so most likely it's someone experimenting with the recruiting system. The schools are too close together however, so he will have to move at the end of the season. If there's any further problems with these teams/users please let us know.
4/16/2013 5:55 PM	dshook30
Ok. One more question. Can people have two teams in the same world? I thought that was a no-no?
4/16/2013 7:29 PM	Customer Support
We allow it as long as the schools are 1000 miles apart or more.
4/16/2013 8:36 PM	dshook30
With all due respect, my first six recruits that were considering me (one me and S Vermont) all went to his teams. Three to one and three to another. How In the world can you say I wasn't targeted? Maybe he just randomly picked me but at any rate I was definitely targeted. I have been a customer for 5+ years and been through more than 40 recruiting cycles. The most enjoyable part of this IS the recruiting. Because this guy took away these SIX guys, I am stuck with two mediocre guys and my first two walkons in Bard history. This has COMPLETELY screwed me out of what I pay in order to do. So what I have built is now in jeopardy because one person had an unfair advantage this cycle. He recruited from one team just about 200 miles apart and poached from my consider by list. It is a lesson learned. However I feel that I at the very least should be given a refund for this season. I can't believe that you are in the business of aliennating your long time customers.
4/16/2013 9:10 PM	dshook30
With all due respect, my first six recruits that were considering me (one me and S Vermont) all went to his teams. Three to one and three to another. How In the world can you say I wasn't targeted? Maybe he just randomly picked me but at any rate I was definitely targeted. I have been a customer for 5+ years and been through more than 40 recruiting cycles. The most enjoyable part of this IS the recruiting. Because this guy took away these SIX guys, I am stuck with two mediocre guys and my first two walkons in Bard history. This has COMPLETELY screwed me out of what I pay in order to do. So what I have built is now in jeopardy because one person had an unfair advantage this cycle. He recruited from one team just about 200 miles apart and poached from my consider by list. It is a lesson learned. However I feel that I at the very least should be given a refund for this season. I can't believe that you are in the business of aliennating your long time customers.
4/16/2013 9:15 PM	dshook30
Sorry about the double post. The refund is the least that should be done. You allowed a user to violate the rules and take away recruits from my team. You should make him choose one of the teams RIGHT NOW and the other one should have their recruits returned to whomever they were considering without the recruiting of the violating team. Then, if they would all come to me, allow me to remove one of the recruits I scrambled to get in order for to sign the players that should rightfully be mine. And refund the customer of more than five years for this season for the trouble. That is what should happen.

4/15/2013 2:53 PM	dshook30
I have what appears to be two new coaches targeting me and my recruits. ONLY my recruits. Both have eight open scholarships and have taken away 4 players from me in less than 24 hours. Potentially five as one of the teams has joined a battle I have been having since the opening cycle of recruiting. Could this be someone, or just one person targeting me? Is there recourse here for me? I have never had a walkon in my time at Bard, about 40 seasons and will get 3 or 4 THIS SEASON! I did post something in the forum about it. The teams are Union and Suny Geneseo.
4/15/2013 7:33 PM	Customer Support
Hi Don, Which users are you referring to?
4/15/2013 7:55 PM	dshook30
Its Union with giantslayer and SUNY Geneseo and samsampson. Since I sent this in, SUNY has jumped on the last guy who was only considering me. It seems real fishy. The only guys either has on their recruiting list are guys that have been considering me.
4/16/2013 3:05 PM	Customer Support
We've investigated this and we did not find anything suggesting that these two schools are targeting your recruits.
4/16/2013 4:09 PM	dshook30
So two teams take away the first six guys that were considering, three apiece and there is nothing suggesting that they have targeted me? I believe that it could be one person in control of both teams. Did you see if that was the case? I really find it hard to believe that this isn't nefarious. So, if Suny Geneseo doesn't sign anybody else and only takes 3 guys and gets 5 walkons and then doesn't renew, would that be evidence or it, or would you just believe it was a bad newbie not knowing what they were doing? Union has gotten four more recruits since this started. But, their first three were ALL guys that we considering me. Am I to believe that this is simply a coincidence? Forgive me, but I've recruited for 5 calendar years and nothing even remotely close to this has EVER happened to me. This screws the team I've had since 08. Completely screws it. So, please tell me if you looked into the two names being the same person.
4/16/2013 5:27 PM	dshook30
In thinking about my response, I rambled a bit. I am theorizing that it's one user with two teams. Why they would do it to me, I have no idea. I don't believe I have enemies on here. So that's why I'm asking what you checked or if you checked to see if they were using the same IP address or the credit card info was the same.
4/16/2013 5:52 PM	Customer Support
Don, We did thoroughly check out the situation and there wasn't any conclusive evidence that you were being targeted. We did confirm that it's the same user, and while there are aspects of the situation that seem strange, there isn't enough to conclude that he was targeting you specifically. Generally if that happens, there's a history of bad blood or something like that, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. This is an inexperienced user, so most likely it's someone experimenting with the recruiting system. The schools are too close together however, so he will have to move at the end of the season. If there's any further problems with these teams/users please let us know.
4/16/2013 5:55 PM	dshook30
Ok. One more question. Can people have two teams in the same world? I thought that was a no-no?
4/16/2013 7:29 PM	Customer Support
We allow it as long as the schools are 1000 miles apart or more.
4/16/2013 8:36 PM	dshook30
With all due respect, my first six recruits that were considering me (one me and S Vermont) all went to his teams. Three to one and three to another. How In the world can you say I wasn't targeted? Maybe he just randomly picked me but at any rate I was definitely targeted. I have been a customer for 5+ years and been through more than 40 recruiting cycles. The most enjoyable part of this IS the recruiting. Because this guy took away these SIX guys, I am stuck with two mediocre guys and my first two walkons in Bard history. This has COMPLETELY screwed me out of what I pay in order to do. So what I have built is now in jeopardy because one person had an unfair advantage this cycle. He recruited from one team just about 200 miles apart and poached from my consider by list. It is a lesson learned. However I feel that I at the very least should be given a refund for this season. I can't believe that you are in the business of aliennating your long time customers.
4/16/2013 9:10 PM	dshook30
With all due respect, my first six recruits that were considering me (one me and S Vermont) all went to his teams. Three to one and three to another. How In the world can you say I wasn't targeted? Maybe he just randomly picked me but at any rate I was definitely targeted. I have been a customer for 5+ years and been through more than 40 recruiting cycles. The most enjoyable part of this IS the recruiting. Because this guy took away these SIX guys, I am stuck with two mediocre guys and my first two walkons in Bard history. This has COMPLETELY screwed me out of what I pay in order to do. So what I have built is now in jeopardy because one person had an unfair advantage this cycle. He recruited from one team just about 200 miles apart and poached from my consider by list. It is a lesson learned. However I feel that I at the very least should be given a refund for this season. I can't believe that you are in the business of aliennating your long time customers.
4/16/2013 9:15 PM	dshook30
Sorry about the double post. The refund is the least that should be done. You allowed a user to violate the rules and take away recruits from my team. You should make him choose one of the teams RIGHT NOW and the other one should have their recruits returned to whomever they were considering without the recruiting of the violating team. Then, if they would all come to me, allow me to remove one of the recruits I scrambled to get in order for to sign the players that should rightfully be mine. And refund the customer of more than five years for this season for the trouble. That is what should happen.

Wow, glad I stayed up-- WIS next change-- database ensuring this doesn't happen again???

Thank you and I'm sorry

I'm deleting many of my posts here because I'm an idiot and was presuming things that weren't true to be true, and they end(ed) up being a detriment to this process and an unfortunate circumstance which hopefully doesn't lead to (too many) people leaving/quitting, though they are within their rights to do what they will.  If I got poached, I would play through it, I see where others might have a problem with it, but I'm not the average bear....if anyone is going to get poached, hell I guess I would/should be enemy #1 lol, but hopefully guys recruit badly and have to worry about their own nonsense.

Again, I apologize for clogging up this thread, I had my Perry Mason hat on too tight and I certainly deserve and accept whatever backlash I get for this whole outburst to begin with.  Dshook30, I understand why you're leaving, but I wish you'd stay because you're really a class act.  Take care all.

Trevor

Very classy response, trevor. I've given into the lure of wearing that Perry Mason hat many times in my life, so I know what that's like.   

Again, sorry about the double post on the ticket. It didn't want to paste. Here is the way that it went. I never delete recruiting emails until after recruiting so I was able to accurately depict just how it happened.

At first I had three considering me (Sat 8pm), two just me (recruits A and B) and one in a battle with S. vermont (recruit C).
Then, I selected my 4th and final guy(Sun 5pm). Considering just me( recruit D). 
Two cycles later (Sun 11pm), recruit B consider me and SUNY G/ recruit D considering Union and me.
I decided three battles is not a good idea. SUNY and Union have 8 open spots and could over spend. I will let them go.
Then in two cycles (Mon 5am), Recruits B only considering SUNY G/Recruit D only considering Union.
I then find two replacements and at cycle(Mon 11am) they consider just me (recruits E and F). Recruit C now considering me, S Vermont and Union. 
Next cycle(Mon 2pm), Recruit E considering SUNY G and no longer me. Recruit F considering Union and no longer me.
Next cycle, (Mon 5pm) Recruit A now considering SUNY G and me.

I wait until 2am TUE to try to sneak in my only two signees. It works and I get two guys from a state I didn't scout just to try to avoid 4 walkons.

So even though I had 8 considering me, I did it in the best way I could, not really believing that one person was simply after my guys.

I can't tell you how frustrating it was.

WOW - they confirmed it was the same user - but didnt consider that to be a problem??? what the hell?? i have 2 teams in d1 tark, USC and USC (south carolina). they are pretty far apart, but if i used them to battle the same coach on just ONE recruit each, there would be uproar! people would consider me a cheater just off that 1 incident. there have actually been 2 times in my life with 2 d1 tark schools, where it was in the independent best interest of each school to battle the same guy. but its just the price you have to pay, its your responsibility to make sure you arent negatively impacting the experience of others when you have 2 teams. the old rule worked better - 2 teams in the same division were technically not allowed, period - but it was only enforced if someone complained. otherwise, it was assumed that nobody was being negatively impacted, and therefore, there was nothing wrong.

of course, that subjectivity becomes a problem when users complain about it, which ultimately resulted in changes being made. but anyway, it still seems basic common sense that having 2 teams in the same world means you have a responsibility to others. so, in those 2 situations where independent coaches would have jumped the same school, i had to choose which to do it with, and the other, i found something else to do. a small negative to me is worth it, because i really needed my teams recruiting at the same time - but that doesnt give me the right to negatively impact others!

anyway, i think the fact that its the same user makes it blatant cheating. but when they are BOTH first year users - that sounds like irrefutable proof, to me. i would ask if those are free hd accounts, that would just take it to another level of ridiculousness. 

I am not going to quit over this, but I am definitely going to send a ticket. As tbird pointed out, inaction on CS's part could be an ugly precedent to set...somewhat like Larry Scott's inaction in the whole Ed Rush/Pac-12 Officiating scandal. (Though of course vastly different scales here.) When the integrity of a game is called into question, leadership must take it VERY serious. 

I hope CS makes the right decision here... immediately removing one of the user's from their teams and returning some of the recruits in question to dshook. 

I'll admit I can get into dick mode pretty quick on something I care about, especially if I have strong feelings one way or the other.  HD is far and away my favorite game in anything and I do want to see it run up to par, and that it's fair and competitive for everyone to play...recruiting is one of those gray areas, as seen here.  This may sound very foreign coming out of my mouth, but I feel bad for WIS here too, because they're put in a pickle because of this situation as well, presumably users who have arguably abused a free season to a great game.

Posted by gillispie on 4/17/2013 1:21:00 AM (view original):
WOW - they confirmed it was the same user - but didnt consider that to be a problem??? what the hell?? i have 2 teams in d1 tark, USC and USC (south carolina). they are pretty far apart, but if i used them to battle the same coach on just ONE recruit each, there would be uproar! people would consider me a cheater just off that 1 incident. there have actually been 2 times in my life with 2 d1 tark schools, where it was in the independent best interest of each school to battle the same guy. but its just the price you have to pay, its your responsibility to make sure you arent negatively impacting the experience of others when you have 2 teams. the old rule worked better - 2 teams in the same division were technically not allowed, period - but it was only enforced if someone complained. otherwise, it was assumed that nobody was being negatively impacted, and therefore, there was nothing wrong.

of course, that subjectivity becomes a problem when users complain about it, which ultimately resulted in changes being made. but anyway, it still seems basic common sense that having 2 teams in the same world means you have a responsibility to others. so, in those 2 situations where independent coaches would have jumped the same school, i had to choose which to do it with, and the other, i found something else to do. a small negative to me is worth it, because i really needed my teams recruiting at the same time - but that doesnt give me the right to negatively impact others!

anyway, i think the fact that its the same user makes it blatant cheating. but when they are BOTH first year users - that sounds like irrefutable proof, to me. i would ask if those are free hd accounts, that would just take it to another level of ridiculousness. 

Bingo.

Whether the new coach targeted dshook's recruits because of "bad blood" is irrelevant. And it's silly for CS to cling to this as a reason for inaction.

The fact of the matter is that one user violated the fair play guidelines by having two schools under 1000 miles of each other...and then proceded to poach 6 recruits from ONE user. That looks like blatant targeting/collusion and even the appearance of collusion or cheating in any way should not be tolerated by WIS. They are risking alienating many paid customers if they fail to act here. 

wow thats just messed up.  WIS should be ashamed of that responce

ticket submitted.

"I've been reading the thread in the forum about dshook30 and his recruits being targeted by a single user at 2 schools. This is utter BS, and should not be allowed to stand.

It's blatant collusion, through every definition of the word, including the WIS guidelines. dshook30 should have his season's money refunded, at the very least, and the recruits added to his team if these were really free season users, as someone has surmised.

If this hasn't already been brought to  Seble's attention, I'd suggest you do so immediately. The WIS reaction to this situation will be followed by many HD users, and I really hope you all get it right.

Thanks, and I look forward to seeing a good resolution to this.

Josh"



--best of luck, dshook30.