All Forums > SimLeague Basketball > Theme Leagues > How important is “help” defense?
5/22/2013 2:18 PM
So felonius has doubled Kobe in the first three games of our 2nd round ODL playoff series. Kobe hit a buzzer beater in game 2 to steal home court and he just went for 51 in game 3 in a 141-130 win.

It will be interesting to see if felonius comes back with the double in game 4 because while it may be slowing down Kobe a little it has made Jerry Lucas a super star.

Kobe's stats through three games: 45.7ppg, 51 for 103 from the field for 49.5%; 10 for 21 from three for 47.6% and a total efg of 54.4%.

But Lucas just had a 31-11-11 line and is 30 for 46 in the series and 2 for 3 from long range for an efg of 67.4% and 22.7ppg, more than 5 up from his reg season and an efg 9.5% higher.

I may not win this series, but this Kobe ride has been fun and the one thing I'm pretty sure of is that Kobe will NEVER fall to the 4th round again in this league as long as the cap stays at $47mill.
5/22/2013 2:49 PM
Well I have to give you credit nate (dammit).  You appear to really be getting the most out of the Kobester.  It will be interesting as you play more here to see what your stats tell you (and  us) about the sim.  I pretty much just show up and play with little breakdown of stats.  I just read what Ash has to say!  I'll expect you to be sharing your findings in the forums!  Nice to read what guys like Ash and you have to say, it helps the rest of us.
5/22/2013 2:51 PM
Badja, I'm no ash myself. But I am obsessed with the data so thanks. If anything the more I explore the data the more I have realized that 95-99% of the stuff ash has put out there is 100% correct. 
5/23/2013 9:12 AM
Posted by smokey57 on 5/21/2013 5:43:00 PM (view original):
Tar, try setting your def optimization up correctly. Some people actually break their game down to zones and take care of business in each. Works wonders...
What is the "correct" way to set up defensive optimization, smokey?
5/23/2013 9:23 AM
Posted by natenoy on 5/22/2013 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Badja, I'm no ash myself. But I am obsessed with the data so thanks. If anything the more I explore the data the more I have realized that 95-99% of the stuff ash has put out there is 100% correct. 
60% of the time, it works every time.
5/23/2013 11:24 AM (edited)
Posted by smokey57 on 5/21/2013 6:19:00 PM (view original):
IRL the DT is dicey at best, why do owners think it should be a "silver bullet" on the SIM. Makes no sense, but used correctly it's a useful tool.
when the league got rid of the illegal defense rule it totally changed the way defense is played - doubles are used all the time to great effect especially inside - teams routinely take the ball out of the hands of all but the most elite scorers

as far as the sim is concerned here's the FAQ

Q. What are the advantages of double teaming someone?
  A. Double teaming can affect a player's FG%, but at the same time, you are leaving someone open which increases the other players' FG%.

 

The effect of a double team on a particular player depends on the player. For example, a star player who was likely double teamed in real life (e.g. Michael Jordan) may still perform close to his real life numbers even when double teamed. But if you choose not to double team him, he may perform even better than his real life numbers.

 

On the other hand, a player who was likely not double teamed in real life would probably produce less than his real life numbers if he were double teamed, but probably wouldn't much exceed his real life numbers even if not double teamed.
5/23/2013 11:32 AM
Posted by felonius on 5/23/2013 11:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by smokey57 on 5/21/2013 6:19:00 PM (view original):
IRL the DT is dicey at best, why do owners think it should be a "silver bullet" on the SIM. Makes no sense, but used correctly it's a useful tool.
when the league got rid of the illegal defense rule it totally changed the way defense is played - doubles are used all the time to great effect especially inside - teams routinely take the ball out of the hands of all but the most elite scorers

as far as the sim is concerned here's the FAQ

Q. What are the advantages of double teaming someone?
  A. Double teaming can affect a player's FG%, but at the same time, you are leaving someone open which increases the other players' FG%.

 

The effect of a double team on a particular player depends on the player. For example, a star player who was likely double teamed in real life (e.g. Michael Jordan) may still perform close to his real life numbers even when double teamed. But if you choose not to double team him, he may perform even better than his real life numbers.

 

On the other hand, a player who was likely not double teamed in real life would probably produce less than his real life numbers if he were double teamed, but probably wouldn't much exceed his real life numbers even if not double teamed.
This raises so many more questions.
 
If DT, who will be the 2nd defensive player? The player > than the pre-set 95, covering the least offensive player? The player at 100 defensively for the position to be DT'd?
If 1 offensive player is left alone, will the 3 remaining matchups now change to provide the most efficient defensive deployment? 

Not knowing how the SIm will handle coverage of a 2nd "go to" player has me thinking that the only "correct" usage of the tool is only that situation to use a DT is where the 4 other players are players that have relatively equal (and moderate) offensive skills. 
5/23/2013 11:51 AM
for the sake of experiment/argument Im going to double down on doubling throughout whatever's left of our series
5/23/2013 1:35 PM
Well we have at least two games left, and it sure worked on Kobe last game.
5/23/2013 1:48 PM
yeah thomcat - bottom line, we have no idea how it really works, and I've never seen any data that suggest results with it are anything other than random. It doesn't have consistent effects on the DTed player, and it doesn't have consistent effects on how the rest of the team performs.      
5/23/2013 2:02 PM
Nine guys under 20mpg& pick 75

PLAYER MIN FGM/FGA 3PM/3PA FTM/FTA OREB REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
05-06 Kobe Bryant* 41 7/23 1/7 8/8 0 3 7 0 1 8 2 23
94-95 John Stockton* 36 10/18 2/3 5/6 0 3 8 0 2 1 4 27
68-69 Jerry Lucas* 35 5/13 0/1 2/3 6 14 3 0 2 2 4 12
09-10 DeAndre Jordan 21 4/6 0/0 1/2 3 5 1 2 1 4 5 9
05-06 Alonzo Mourning* 21 3/5 0/0 0/0 0 3 1 0 1 2 4 6
95-96 Michael Smith 19 2/3 0/0 0/1 1 4 2 0 1 0 1 4
08-09 Chris Andersen 18 3/4 0/0 0/0 1 5 1 6 1 1 0 6
93-94 Ed Pinckney* 17 1/1 0/0 0/0 0 5 1 1 1 0 3 2
05-06 Earl Watson 12 5/7 3/5 0/1 0 2 3 0 0 0 2 13
82-83 Lasalle Thompson 11 3/6 0/0 1/1 1 3 0 1 0 2 3 7
10-11 Carmelo Anthony 8 5/8 3/3 3/3 0 1 0 0 0 2 3 16
85-86 Pete Williams 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS   48/94 9/19 20/25 12 48 27 10 10 22 31 125
  51.1% 47.4% 80.0%  
Winter is Coming

PLAYER MIN FGM/FGA 3PM/3PA FTM/FTA OREB REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
94-95 Gary Payton* 42 10/21 1/3 4/4 0 1 10 0 10 5 2 25
68-69 Bill Russell* 40 3/5 0/0 0/2 4 12 5 2 0 0 2 6
06-07 Carlos Boozer* 36 13/21 0/0 12/15 3 19 3 0 1 3 5 38
94-95 Clyde Drexler* 33 4/11 2/6 7/11 1 4 4 1 1 2 3 17
08-09 Paul Millsap* 27 7/13 0/0 3/4 6 7 3 1 2 1 1 17
01-02 Michael Redd 27 6/13 3/4 5/8 1 1 4 1 1 2 2 20
11-12 Anderson Varejao 12 2/3 0/0 0/0 2 6 2 0 0 1 2 4
09-10 Greg Oden 7 1/2 0/0 0/0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 2
97-98 Cory Alexander 6 2/3 1/1 0/0 0 1 3 0 0 0 0 5
78-79 Steve Mix 5 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
83-84 David Thompson 4 2/3 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 4
10-11 Kendrick Perkins 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
TOTALS   50/95 7/14 31/44 17 52 35 6 15 14 20 138
  52.6% 50.0% 70.5%  
* - denotes game starter
5/23/2013 2:03 PM
my team is feasting at the line for no apparent reason, 56 FTAs last game 44 more this one
5/23/2013 2:05 PM
ps - the Glove 10 steals
5/23/2013 2:11 PM
Boozer has earned the double for game 6, I knew this team had a very high foul rate when I built it, but never thought you would have 100 FTA's the last two games.
5/23/2013 2:15 PM
did I double Jerry too? I did do that
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