ever wonder how much communication about recruits goes on between coaches in some conferences via sitemail?  

Posted by mamxet on 5/27/2013 9:27:00 PM (view original):
ever wonder how much communication about recruits goes on between coaches in some conferences via sitemail?  

yeah... do you have any idea about the answer? i was shocked how many sitemails i got when i first started d1, but i try to block that from my memory. i dont get those requests now, but i feel like that is probably explained in a variety of ways (colluders learn who says yes and no, etc), other than people no longer do it. however, i just prefer to think its none of those reasons and people no longer do it =) at least not most people. so, if you have any idea... id sort of like to know. but only if the answer is the answer i hope for ;)

billyg, given that what you say is true on face value (and I'm not saying it's not) and integrity is so important to you, then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world...let alone in such proximity?

Can you see how those statements do not add up???

And if you consider the free season or two people get here and there is the reason they would be upset then I think your underestimating the nature of competition (which is probably the underlying reason for why people are here, let alone care about reasons like this precisely so much).

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/27/2013 10:10:00 PM (view original):
billyg, given that what you say is true on face value (and I'm not saying it's not) and integrity is so important to you, then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world...let alone in such proximity?

Can you see how those statements do not add up???

And if you consider the free season or two people get here and there is the reason they would be upset then I think your underestimating the nature of competition (which is probably the underlying reason for why people are here, let alone care about reasons like this precisely so much).

What does integrity have to do with having teams in close proximity?  If he's not doing anything to gain an unfair advantage, he's not doing anything to gain an unfair advantage.  Isn't that all this is about?

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/27/2013 10:10:00 PM (view original):
billyg, given that what you say is true on face value (and I'm not saying it's not) and integrity is so important to you, then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world...let alone in such proximity?

Can you see how those statements do not add up???

And if you consider the free season or two people get here and there is the reason they would be upset then I think your underestimating the nature of competition (which is probably the underlying reason for why people are here, let alone care about reasons like this precisely so much).

im not saying this to be a dick, but because its an important point for the newer people to understand - this is why knowing the history is SO important (and why almost no long timer wants to force those with long time teams to move). the reason i have so many teams in tark is very simple. when i started, my cousin played rupp and tark, he got me into the game. i grabbed a team in each. i played this game so intensely at my peak, probably with as much intensity and dedication to perfection as any coach ever, so its no surprise i fed on the speed of 2/day worlds. i quit rupp after winning my 1st two titles ever there because i didnt like 1/day. usually people would stay where they won their first 2 titles as a young coach, but thats how much i disliked 1/day compared to 2/day. so i racked up tark teams - the only option - and when FSS and potential DID NOT EXIST, meaning, there was ABSOLUTELY NO issue with teams 5 miles apart. ive had 3 for most of my career and 4 for parts of it (sometimes 1-2 but usually not). also i grew to love the tark community, it was the first new world in so long, so many of the top coaches had teams or multiple teams there. its where all the records have been set for best all time runs, OR and Rails had the d1 and d3, and d2 all time best runs ever in tark when i started, and today theres as few as 2 "runs" in the running for best of all time in d1 and non-d1, maybe a couple more than 2 (its subjective), but basically every single one is in tark. to me, tark is where the magic happened, i have literally zero interest in coaching anywhere else, ever. its been that way for 5 years now.

by the time knight and phelan opened up, i was already burnt out. i was already cutting back dramatically on the game, id had all my runs, got my 16 or 17 titles, and was retiring. in the first 2.5 years of play, i won 17 times, in the 3 years since, i won 3 times. it just wasnt fun to play like that anymore, the part ive enjoyed since then is talking about the game, debating strategy, etc... not playing it. so the only place i play is the place where i have ties and resumes, tark. i have tried exactly 5 times since the first multiple team rule came out 3 years ago (no teams in the same division in the same geographic region) to pick up teams in phelan and knight, and i have yet to get to a BCS program, just recently i finally made it to d1 phelan, after years of trying to force myself to suffer through the progression chain. its just not fun to me anymore to play the game like that, its a chore, and a big one - it takes over a year to get back to high d1!!

so there you have it. the people who coached with me the last 5 years know my history and tark and have zero need to question the motives of having teams there. i have NO problem with you questioning it, just circling back to that point about history. why are my teams so close in proximity? for 3 teams, they arent - california, illinois, south carolina? not really close at all. the 2 teams i had in texas were before anyone had any problems with multiple teams. i had SIUE and UK during the core potential era but theres good reason for that. SIUE is the first d2 program i ever had, and i never left, its all ive ever played of d2 except a few seasons at a few different schools. UK is my dream school. its really that simple, im not sure what doesnt add up?

thats fine about competition, to each their own. to me this is a strategy game and people really into strategy games play for the strategy, cheating would totally ruin it. i think those are most of the coaches who are really successful so i dont worry much about it. but i do recognize that in competition in general, people cheat to win. and i know people are pathetic enough to cheat to win even in a stupid online competition, but come on, thats pretty bad. i cant believe thats most of the people here. i know it sucks if you lose to someone who cheats, but i just try to enjoy myself and not worry about that aspect. for a guy posting a page long response here, i recognize this is a bit hypocritical. but people just take this **** too seriously!

Posted by ike1024 on 5/27/2013 12:28:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, but my opinion is that if you have two teams in the same world - which I think is fine in theory - you shouldn't be recruiting the same geographic areas, even if FSSing with both. I understand all of the reasons to want two teams in the same world, but you also have to make sacrifices. Doing anything you can to avoid the appearance of impropriety is just one of those sacrifices.

you know what, i kind of forgot that post was about etiquette for multiple teams 1000 miles apart. i was thinking about back when i had 2 teams in texas mostly. obviously there, scouting overlapped. in terms of recruiting somewhere where another team is, with teams 1000+ miles apart, thats tough. depending on the team i recruit totally differently. with some teams ive started to scout in a 1000 mile radius. even with teams 1000 mile apart, that would destroy that strategy, i couldnt do it. with USC i am scouting like, overlapping territory with SIUE today (interestingly, with south carolina, where i had to move - im not. well, TN, ok i am. was. but its 1 state instead of a few). i never really thought of that being a problem, i guess when you wipe out significant portions of a legitimate strategy, i feel like its going too far. 

really, i could live with 1 team per world period (as long as handled reasonably), so i could live with the restriction if people thought it was necessary. almost definitely i wont have multiple teams in a world after this season so it wont really affect me anymore. but in general with teams close together, i would feel it was ok, so i sort of feel it has to be ok with teams far apart. i get the point about impropriety though, and would be ok living without it.

Posted by stinenavy on 5/27/2013 10:33:00 PM (view original):
You have to have a giant leap of faith to think a guy with multiple teams in one world, let alone ones within 1000 miles, are never going to gain some sort of advantage.

I'm glad we aren't going over the top by comparing a 1000 mile rule to the Holocaust, Prohibition, and some civil liberties degradations... oh wait...

its not me trying to paint the world in only black and white. the only approach ive found to have a discussion with people who do, is to use extreme cases, and try to force people to acknowledge the existence of shades of gray, and then to get back to the real point. it should never get to that point, but i dont consider that to be my fault. besides, at least there is something to compare with my examples, not hey some guy who speeds 60 miles in a 35 all day every day and gets ****** when a cop clocks him is just like you!! good thinking there boss.

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/27/2013 10:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/27/2013 10:10:00 PM (view original):
billyg, given that what you say is true on face value (and I'm not saying it's not) and integrity is so important to you, then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world...let alone in such proximity?

Can you see how those statements do not add up???

And if you consider the free season or two people get here and there is the reason they would be upset then I think your underestimating the nature of competition (which is probably the underlying reason for why people are here, let alone care about reasons like this precisely so much).

im not saying this to be a dick, but because its an important point for the newer people to understand - this is why knowing the history is SO important (and why almost no long timer wants to force those with long time teams to move). the reason i have so many teams in tark is very simple. when i started, my cousin played rupp and tark, he got me into the game. i grabbed a team in each. i played this game so intensely at my peak, probably with as much intensity and dedication to perfection as any coach ever, so its no surprise i fed on the speed of 2/day worlds. i quit rupp after winning my 1st two titles ever there because i didnt like 1/day. usually people would stay where they won their first 2 titles as a young coach, but thats how much i disliked 1/day compared to 2/day. so i racked up tark teams - the only option - and when FSS and potential DID NOT EXIST, meaning, there was ABSOLUTELY NO issue with teams 5 miles apart. ive had 3 for most of my career and 4 for parts of it (sometimes 1-2 but usually not). also i grew to love the tark community, it was the first new world in so long, so many of the top coaches had teams or multiple teams there. its where all the records have been set for best all time runs, OR and Rails had the d1 and d3, and d2 all time best runs ever in tark when i started, and today theres as few as 2 "runs" in the running for best of all time in d1 and non-d1, maybe a couple more than 2 (its subjective), but basically every single one is in tark. to me, tark is where the magic happened, i have literally zero interest in coaching anywhere else, ever. its been that way for 5 years now.

by the time knight and phelan opened up, i was already burnt out. i was already cutting back dramatically on the game, id had all my runs, got my 16 or 17 titles, and was retiring. in the first 2.5 years of play, i won 17 times, in the 3 years since, i won 3 times. it just wasnt fun to play like that anymore, the part ive enjoyed since then is talking about the game, debating strategy, etc... not playing it. so the only place i play is the place where i have ties and resumes, tark. i have tried exactly 5 times since the first multiple team rule came out 3 years ago (no teams in the same division in the same geographic region) to pick up teams in phelan and knight, and i have yet to get to a BCS program, just recently i finally made it to d1 phelan, after years of trying to force myself to suffer through the progression chain. its just not fun to me anymore to play the game like that, its a chore, and a big one - it takes over a year to get back to high d1!!

so there you have it. the people who coached with me the last 5 years know my history and tark and have zero need to question the motives of having teams there. i have NO problem with you questioning it, just circling back to that point about history. why are my teams so close in proximity? for 3 teams, they arent - california, illinois, south carolina? not really close at all. the 2 teams i had in texas were before anyone had any problems with multiple teams. i had SIUE and UK during the core potential era but theres good reason for that. SIUE is the first d2 program i ever had, and i never left, its all ive ever played of d2 except a few seasons at a few different schools. UK is my dream school. its really that simple, im not sure what doesnt add up?

thats fine about competition, to each their own. to me this is a strategy game and people really into strategy games play for the strategy, cheating would totally ruin it. i think those are most of the coaches who are really successful so i dont worry much about it. but i do recognize that in competition in general, people cheat to win. and i know people are pathetic enough to cheat to win even in a stupid online competition, but come on, thats pretty bad. i cant believe thats most of the people here. i know it sucks if you lose to someone who cheats, but i just try to enjoy myself and not worry about that aspect. for a guy posting a page long response here, i recognize this is a bit hypocritical. but people just take this **** too seriously!

This has nothing to do with your cousin or the pre-potential era (which I remember). This has to do with here and now. Not to mention that multiple accounts were still of source cheating before the potential era began.

Just because you were a part of the site before the rules were implemented doesn't mean that you were automatically grandfathered-in. If anything it means you're one of the people most aware of the rules....which makes it even more suspicious when somebody knowingly subverts them.

i was answering your question... "then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world". how can you say that has nothing to do with how i got here? i have so many teams because i had so many teams when the rule came out (for the reasons described) and didnt want to start over in new worlds (for the reasons described). what am i missing? how does that not directly (albeit with great detail) answer your question?

Posted by udm_mike on 5/27/2013 10:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/27/2013 10:10:00 PM (view original):
billyg, given that what you say is true on face value (and I'm not saying it's not) and integrity is so important to you, then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world...let alone in such proximity?

Can you see how those statements do not add up???

And if you consider the free season or two people get here and there is the reason they would be upset then I think your underestimating the nature of competition (which is probably the underlying reason for why people are here, let alone care about reasons like this precisely so much).

What does integrity have to do with having teams in close proximity?  If he's not doing anything to gain an unfair advantage, he's not doing anything to gain an unfair advantage.  Isn't that all this is about?

Integrity has everything to do with it, whether you're the newest player or one of the "oldest most important" players. Besides, we don't know he not doing anything to gain an unfair advantage. I don't even know what his voice sounds like, let alone that he's knowingly violated many WIS fairplay guidelines for multiple seasons. That's not somebody whose word that "I just take for it".

I'll still honor my word to go back and amend my original statement, but we still got some hashing out to do.

you guys talk about these rules like they were created to stop some great injustice and i am committing that great injustice. you realize seble and old admin have made it really clear they dont give a **** what you do, just dont want people to complain, and then get more complaints when they react to a complaint? this restriction exists to give seble something to lean on when he makes someone move. you saw what he did when the guy picked up 2 free HD teams to attack that one coach, a few weeks back - nothing. ok, he MADE HIM DROP A FREE HD TEAM!! i mean come on. seble and tarek before him dont give a **** about this, they just dont want to deal with it, that has been made *ABUNDANTLY* clear. neither one of them have ever given us a reason to believe they actually really have a problem with multiple teams on its own merits.

if someone makes a rule and tells you they dont actually care and not to worry about it, its not a great injustice to take their advice and not worry about it.

This will be my first, and last, post on this subject.  If WiS really cared about this rule, they wouldn't make us police ourselves with it.  They would create some way that the majority of users couldn't get around.  Of course you are always going to have those people that are computer people and could get around whatever it is that is implemented.  I was around when HD started, played for a couple years and then quit for another few years.  I came back to the site somewhere around the beginning of the year.  If WiS really was that worried about this rule, they would be proactive about finding those people with multiple accounts that are also violating the 1000 mile rule.  Instead, they only do anything when someone ******* about it and creates a headache for them. Which tells me they really don't care so long as they aren't "being bothered" by users that complain about it.

Posted by gillispie on 5/27/2013 10:54:00 PM (view original):
i was answering your question... "then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world". how can you say that has nothing to do with how i got here? i have so many teams because i had so many teams when the rule came out (for the reasons described) and didnt want to start over in new worlds (for the reasons described). what am i missing? how does that not directly (albeit with great detail) answer your question?

no, you're right, you answered the question asked.

Sorry about my response, I got carried away.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/27/2013 11:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 5/27/2013 10:54:00 PM (view original):
i was answering your question... "then why would you purposefully have so many teams in the same world". how can you say that has nothing to do with how i got here? i have so many teams because i had so many teams when the rule came out (for the reasons described) and didnt want to start over in new worlds (for the reasons described). what am i missing? how does that not directly (albeit with great detail) answer your question?

no, you're right, you answered the question asked.

Sorry about my response, I got carried away.

ok, thats totally fine, i appreciate the correction. i know you are still not OK with people carrying these multiple teams, but just to make sure i understand, can you at least appreciate now how some people got there and how it could possibly be a pretty significant inconvenience to unwind without any assistance from WIS? if they had been willing to move us, or somehow help resolve the issue, it would have went really, really far. doing nothing to help unwind when people put those 5 years in to building a program or even a resume in a world, and it can take years to reach the pinnacle in a new world on your own, really sucks! i can see you thinking that still doesnt make it ok - but can you at least appreciate why it sucks so much that WIS did nothing to help? and that they should have done something when they changed the rule and put people who never did anything wrong or against the rules suddenly in violation?