Hall of Fame weekend Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2013 10:18:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 10:05:00 AM (view original):
Absolutely agree.

I don't think Morris should be in and I don't think that being better than Morris should qualify anyone for the hall.

My point was that it isn't ridiculous to seriously consider Lofton's case since he was better than Morris and plenty if people think Morris should be in.
LOL @ bad_luck for saying "it isn't ridiculous to seriously consider Lofton's case" in a HOF discussion.
I know, right?
7/30/2013 10:22 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 10:07:00 AM (view original):
I don't see anyone on this board arguing for Morris.  

And, yes, it is ridiculous to seriously consider Lofton for the HOF.
Based on...?
7/30/2013 10:22 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 10:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 10:07:00 AM (view original):
I don't see anyone on this board arguing for Morris.  

And, yes, it is ridiculous to seriously consider Lofton for the HOF.
Based on...?

His career.

7/30/2013 10:29 AM
MikeT23
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Seriously, even though I was serious in my last post, we're not going to agree on ANY borderline players.    You use the "But he's better than.....and he's in" argument which is the LCD argument.   My counter is "Well, he shouldn't be" which means I believe there are a lot of unworthy players in the HOF.   I want the best of the best not a bunch of good player with good, long careers. 
7/30/2013 10:32 AM
bad_luck
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I don't necessarily think Lofton should be in. But I do think he was better than Morris. Based on the amount of consideration Morris has received, I think it is perfectly acceptable to at least consider Lofton's case.
7/30/2013 10:39 AM
MikeT23
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Biggio, Lofton, Raines even Bernie Williams fall into that category. 

BW played CF for 16 seasons on a bunch of winning teams, hit .297 on his career with an OPS+ of 125 during the steroid era and was never linked to 'roids.   Made 5 straight All-Star teams and was top 17 in MVP voting 6 times.   He won 4 GG.   Among the 2013 candidates, he was 17th in career WAR and 16th on WAR7.  That was with all the 'roided up MFers on the ballot. 

But he can't be a serious HOF candidate. 
7/30/2013 10:39 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 10:39:00 AM (view original):
I don't necessarily think Lofton should be in. But I do think he was better than Morris. Based on the amount of consideration Morris has received, I think it is perfectly acceptable to at least consider Lofton's case.
LCD.

Pretty much everyone should be in if Phil Rizzuto is in.   And Rizzuto is not the worst HOFer.
7/30/2013 10:41 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 10:39:00 AM (view original):
Biggio, Lofton, Raines even Bernie Williams fall into that category. 

BW played CF for 16 seasons on a bunch of winning teams, hit .297 on his career with an OPS+ of 125 during the steroid era and was never linked to 'roids.   Made 5 straight All-Star teams and was top 17 in MVP voting 6 times.   He won 4 GG.   Among the 2013 candidates, he was 17th in career WAR and 16th on WAR7.  That was with all the 'roided up MFers on the ballot. 

But he can't be a serious HOF candidate. 
Why not? No reason not to at least consider Williams's case. And Lofton was better than Williams.

Comparison is the only tool we have. Not every Hall of Fame candidate is Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds. Some are Tony Gwynn and Tim Raines. Others are Bernie Williams and Kenny Lofton.

No one is arguing that being better than the worst Hall of Famer should get a guy in. But if he is above average (relative other Hall of Famers at his position) then he should be in. Disclaimer, I have no idea if Lofton is above HOF CF average. But he was good enough that we should look.
7/30/2013 10:50 AM
MikeT23
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There is a difference between "serious" and "passing mention".    Williams and Lofton deserved to be mentioned.  Both were pretty damn good for pretty damn long(baseball-wise).   But, after saying "How about Bernie?" and the response is "Uh, no", the discussion should end.  Or, if anything else needs to be said, it should be "Yeah, right."

7/30/2013 11:21 AM
bad_luck
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This is what Jay Jaffe says about Lofton:

"A six-time All-Star, five-time Gold Glove winner and a stellar leadoff hitter in his own right, the well-traveled Lofton ranks eighth among centerfielders in JAWS, a hair below the average Hall of Famer but still above the median among that group. He’s in his first year on the ballot and in serious danger of getting lost in the crowd; the straw poll has him below 5.0 percent, and I couldn’t find room for him on my virtual ballot either. Hopefully, he can get a longer look."
7/30/2013 11:23 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 11:21:00 AM (view original):

There is a difference between "serious" and "passing mention".    Williams and Lofton deserved to be mentioned.  Both were pretty damn good for pretty damn long(baseball-wise).   But, after saying "How about Bernie?" and the response is "Uh, no", the discussion should end.  Or, if anything else needs to be said, it should be "Yeah, right."

It looks like Lofton was significantly better than Williams. You're right about Williams. Five minutes on his BR page comparing him to other HOF center fielders and you can see that he doesn't belong. Lofton, on the other hand, compares well to most Hall of Fame center fielders.
7/30/2013 11:24 AM
MikeT23
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IOW, I think it's possible to be in MLB for 15 years, be an awards candidate most of your career and still not be a legit HOF candidate.    Playing at the highest level of competition for a long time is still remarkable.    But it doesn't mean you were the best of the best. 
7/30/2013 11:24 AM
MikeT23
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I'm right about Lofton too.   But your JAWS has him above Raines and, if you admit Lofton isn't really a HOFer, you have to throw out your new metric or admit Raines doesn't belong in the HOFer.    And we know you're not going to do that.
7/30/2013 11:26 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
I'm right about Lofton too.   But your JAWS has him above Raines and, if you admit Lofton isn't really a HOFer, you have to throw out your new metric or admit Raines doesn't belong in the HOFer.    And we know you're not going to do that.
It looks like Lofton compares very well to other Hall of Fame center fielders. I think he deserves consideration.

I'd certainly agree that JAWS isn't a be all end all metric. It's just a quick reference. Raines most certainly belongs, his case is much, much stronger than Lofton's. Raines was as valuable as Tony Gwynn.
7/30/2013 11:31 AM
MikeT23
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Feels like you're trying to suck me into a discussion about Lofton.   Won't happen.    The difference between Lofton and Brett Butler is neglibile.   I wouldn't argue Brett Butler for HOF for more than a sentence.   Lofton deserves three sentences and I've used them up. 

7/30/2013 12:04 PM
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