Cabrera won MVP Topic

Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 3:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
You're saying that despite the catcher's inferior offensive numbers, he's more valuable than the 1st baseman, because he's harder to replace, even if there's a replacement for him that's just as good on the bench.  Yes?
Yes
How many times were you hit over the head with a hammer this morning?
a .300/.400/.500 catcher is essentially Buster Posey.

A .310/.410/.530 first baseman is...Freddie Freeman...Allen Craig...Prince Fielder.

Even if you had his clone sitting on the bench, Posey is more valuable.

 
He is not that valuable to his team because the team doesn't miss a beat if he gets hurt, leaves, gets traded, gets hit by a car, etc.  How valuable is he if someone else could do his job just as well?  If the Giants had 2 Buster Poseys on their team, they'd be trying to trade one.  Because the 2nd Buster Posey has more value to a different team.
 
But most teams don't have 1 Posey. So, while you may have two, he isn't any less valuable.
11/18/2013 3:55 PM
And BL has obviously not watched Cabby play 3rd at ALL. He's a solid defensive third baseman and not a liability at all other than his range. The guy can play the position, and to say otherwise comes from an uneducated place. And for BL to call him a "quadruple amputee" at 3rd just takes away all of his credibility and makes his argument that much more stupid because he obviously doesn't know dick about Cabrera and his capabilities as a third baseman.
11/18/2013 3:57 PM
Cabrera finished 2nd in errors at 3rd this past season with 12. Only Longoria with 11 had less out of the regular 3rd basemen in the AL. He also finished 7th in fielding percentage.
11/18/2013 4:04 PM
BL says that because his beloved WAR, in particular dWAR (which is inherently flawed), says that Cabrera is a bad defensive third baseman.
11/18/2013 4:04 PM
"But most teams don't have 1 Posey. So, while you may have two, he isn't any less valuable."

Posey #2, the one sitting on the bench, certainly has less value to your team because he's not playing.
11/18/2013 4:06 PM
You don't get it.  He's not less valuable, he's just not being used properly.   Production doesn't matter.   If he looks good in the uni and can play a little, he's the MVP.
11/18/2013 4:53 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 4:04:00 PM (view original):
BL says that because his beloved WAR, in particular dWAR (which is inherently flawed), says that Cabrera is a bad defensive third baseman.
I don't use dWAR for anything. I'm looking at UZR and defensive runs saved.
11/18/2013 5:19 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 4:06:00 PM (view original):
"But most teams don't have 1 Posey. So, while you may have two, he isn't any less valuable."

Posey #2, the one sitting on the bench, certainly has less value to your team because he's not playing.
So what if the guy sitting on the bench has less value? We're talking about the guy who plays.
11/18/2013 5:22 PM
He has less value as well, because he is easily expendable.
11/18/2013 5:57 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 5:57:00 PM (view original):
He has less value as well, because he is easily expendable.
Why would he have less value? He's a catcher that hits 300/400/500. That has a ton of value regardless of who you have on the bench.
11/18/2013 6:04 PM
I think we're conflating two different kinds of value.

Scarcity/trade value and production value.

The catcher hitting 300/400/500 has more production value than a first baseman hitting 310/410/530. This is because they are near equals offensively and not near equals on defense (an average defensive catcher contributes more to run saving than an average defensive first baseman). I think that's a fact, not an opinion.

In my opinion, he also has more scarcity/trade value, even if you have two. I wouldn't trade 2013 Posey for 2012 Fielder straight up, even if I had two Poseys. I'd want more than just Fielder.


 
11/18/2013 6:14 PM (edited)
He has less value because he can leave and the team would have an equal value replacement in his clone.  Zero impact to the offense.
11/18/2013 6:15 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 6:15:00 PM (view original):
He has less value because he can leave and the team would have an equal value replacement in his clone.  Zero impact to the offense.
Should they just cut him? OR should they try to trade him?

If they are trading him, do they ask for less in a trade? I wouldn't. I'd expect full value because catchers like that don't grow on trees. Just because I'm lucky enough to have two doesn't mean I'm giving you one at a discount.

 
11/18/2013 6:30 PM
If he has less value, they'll be more likely to be willing to settle for less in return.

As burnsy (I think) pointed out earlier, they would have less leverage in dealing him because other teams will realize that there is more motivation to make a deal when somebody on the bench is being blocked.

Do you really not understand this, or are you just pretending to be this dumb?
11/18/2013 6:36 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 6:36:00 PM (view original):
If he has less value, they'll be more likely to be willing to settle for less in return.

As burnsy (I think) pointed out earlier, they would have less leverage in dealing him because other teams will realize that there is more motivation to make a deal when somebody on the bench is being blocked.

Do you really not understand this, or are you just pretending to be this dumb?
If he has less value...

But I don't think he has less value.

Why would you have less leverage? You aren't being forced to trade him. You can just send the back up out to play first if you insist on playing him. Otherwise, you just have a really good backup in case your starter gets his ankle demolished.

Of course the best use of assets is to probably trade him, but it's only a good use of assets if you get full value for him. Settling for less implies that he is worth more (has more value) than what you received in return.

And again, I think we're conflating on field production value with trade value. Which is partly my fault for bringing it up in the first place. Posey's value on the field (the runs he produces at the plate and the runs he saves on defense) is the same regardless of the players around him. MVP is based on production value, not trade value.

 
11/18/2013 6:54 PM
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Cabrera won MVP Topic

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