Disturbing comments from Cooperstown President. Topic

tecwrg
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Just say "I'm in favor of a watered down HOF, one that includes more than just elite players".

11/29/2013 7:53 AM
mfahie
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You can say what you like, but the HOF has always been about more than just Mantle, Mays & Ruth.

Both Biggio and Bagwell fit somewhere comfortably among the bottom third of players already in the hall. Neither would be a total shame if they didn't get in, but neither would they be a travesty if they got in. To claim they don't even belong in the discussion is obvious extremism.

11/29/2013 8:20 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by Got_Worms on 11/28/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Everyone on that list, except Galarraga, has a strong HOF case. You're making it sound like Bagwell is only similar to 1 HOFer (Stargell). You're making a better case for the argument that if player A is in the HOF than player B should be as well.

After Thomas is elected in January, then he is similar to 2 HOFers!
IMO, if you have to make "a case", you're probably not talking about a HOFer. 

At least that's how I think it should work. 
11/29/2013 9:03 AM
Got_Worms
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There are exactly 300 members of the baseball HOF. WIS database boasts over 15,000 players since 1885. That is .02% of all players that are enshrined in Cooperstown. There is nothing watered down about that statistic and making the case for players, has obviously helped the past couple of elections.
11/29/2013 10:00 AM
MikeT23
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Maybe if we "made a case" to keep people out, the HOF would actually feel like an honor worth talking about.
11/29/2013 10:16 AM
Got_Worms
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Getting elected to the HOF is still an honor & judging by the spirited discussion on the three HOF threads, it is most definitely worth talking about!
11/29/2013 10:59 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 7:53:00 AM (view original):

Just say "I'm in favor of a watered down HOF, one that includes more than just elite players".

Adding Bagwell to the Hall doesn't water it down.
11/29/2013 11:45 AM
tecwrg
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Well, it does, if you believe adding players who achieved their stats through chemical enhancement is not a very good idea.

Did adding Rice, Dawson and Blyleven water it down?  Many believe it did.
11/29/2013 11:54 AM
mfahie
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Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:00:00 AM (view original):
There are exactly 300 members of the baseball HOF. WIS database boasts over 15,000 players since 1885. That is .02% of all players that are enshrined in Cooperstown. There is nothing watered down about that statistic and making the case for players, has obviously helped the past couple of elections.
Math is hard. 300 out of 15,000 is 2%. So 2 out of every 100 players to even make the bigs makes it to the HOF.

0.2% would be Ruth, Mays and Walter Johnson. Boring Hall!
11/29/2013 12:04 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 11:54:00 AM (view original):
Well, it does, if you believe adding players who achieved their stats through chemical enhancement is not a very good idea.

Did adding Rice, Dawson and Blyleven water it down?  Many believe it did.
Rice and Dawson watered it down. They are signigicantly worse than an average hall of famer at their position. Blyleven was above average for a hall of fame starting pitcher.

There isn't any evidence that Bagwell used PEDs.
11/29/2013 12:10 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by mfahie on 11/29/2013 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:00:00 AM (view original):
There are exactly 300 members of the baseball HOF. WIS database boasts over 15,000 players since 1885. That is .02% of all players that are enshrined in Cooperstown. There is nothing watered down about that statistic and making the case for players, has obviously helped the past couple of elections.
Math is hard. 300 out of 15,000 is 2%. So 2 out of every 100 players to even make the bigs makes it to the HOF.

0.2% would be Ruth, Mays and Walter Johnson. Boring Hall!
2% is still extremely exclusive. As a percentage, MLB has the most exclusive hall of any major sport.
11/29/2013 12:13 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by mfahie on 11/29/2013 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:00:00 AM (view original):
There are exactly 300 members of the baseball HOF. WIS database boasts over 15,000 players since 1885. That is .02% of all players that are enshrined in Cooperstown. There is nothing watered down about that statistic and making the case for players, has obviously helped the past couple of elections.
Math is hard. 300 out of 15,000 is 2%. So 2 out of every 100 players to even make the bigs makes it to the HOF.

0.2% would be Ruth, Mays and Walter Johnson. Boring Hall!
Keep in mind that WIS has minimums for IP and AB.

So I'm sure the number of players actually making the bigs is almost double that.
11/29/2013 12:19 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 12:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 11:54:00 AM (view original):
Well, it does, if you believe adding players who achieved their stats through chemical enhancement is not a very good idea.

Did adding Rice, Dawson and Blyleven water it down?  Many believe it did.
Rice and Dawson watered it down. They are signigicantly worse than an average hall of famer at their position. Blyleven was above average for a hall of fame starting pitcher.

There isn't any evidence that Bagwell used PEDs.
11/29/2013 12:57 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Getting elected to the HOF is still an honor & judging by the spirited discussion on the three HOF threads, it is most definitely worth talking about!
Meh.   Everytime a "case made" player is inducted, it becomes less of an honor.     The "spirited discussion" stems from some users thinking it should be more exclusive(tec/me are good examples), while others think it should be more inclusive(you/BL are good examples). 

Glavine is a good example.   My initial reaction is "no thanks".   My secondary reaction, after looking at his stats, is still largely "no thanks" but I'm not nearly as convinced as I am that Kenny Lofton doesn't belong. 
11/29/2013 1:46 PM
bad_luck
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I'm not trying to make it more inclusive. I want to include guys that performed well compared to an average hall of famer at their position and exclude guys that didn't. Very few guys meet the Bonds/Ruth/Mays or Clemens/Seaver/Johnson standard. But that isn't the standard (obviously) for inclusion.

To me, comparing guys to the average hall of famer is the best way to decide if they belong. If Bernie Williams was better than most of the center fielders already in the hall, he'd belong. But he wasn't.
11/29/2013 3:54 PM
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