The question was "why Thomas and Biggio and not Bagwell."

Yea, Bagwell was probably roiding.  But it's dumb to point at guys and think "him, not him, him, probably him, him, not him" with little evidence.  Or using evidence to say "no" to one guy, and ignoring it when saying "yes" to someone else.

I thought tec said he suspected Bagwell and BL wanted to know why.   I posted a couple of pics.  One when MLB was looking the other way and one when Bud was pounded his NO PED pulpit.   The difference is huge.   

As for HOF, I don't care about PED.   Best players were best players. 

I'm really curious to see how Bonds & Clemens do their 2nd time around. Anybody support the argument that they were HOFers before they started using PED's?

Bonds, yes.  Clemens was falling off in Boston before he met BMac in Toronto.

I figured Clemens was roiding with Canseco in the Great White North.

Posted by bad_luck on 11/27/2013 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 11/27/2013 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 11/27/2013 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Nowhere.

But most people like to have some sort of connection to reality when they form an opinion. I guess you don't.

It's funny to see you talking about having "a connection to reality" when it comes to opinions on baseball.

Tell us more about Kenny Lofton's HOF credentials.

Anytime.

Here's the link to my last post on Lofton. He's borderline. Definitely not automatic and not a guy I'd vote for this year if I was limited to 10 names. But I'd consider voting for him if there was no limit.

The fact that you think of this as some sort of way to discredit me says a lot about your (lack of) baseball knowledge.

The fact that you think that Lofton is borderline HOF discredits your baseball knowledge in and of itself.

That is borderline retarded.

MikeT23 - I remember a few years back seeing Ivan Rodriguez at the beginning of the season, & saying "What the hell happened to him?"
All of a sudden Pudge was thin.

He's an easy trace back to roids.  

Posted by tecwrg on 11/27/2013 4:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 11/27/2013 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 11/27/2013 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 11/27/2013 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Nowhere.

But most people like to have some sort of connection to reality when they form an opinion. I guess you don't.

It's funny to see you talking about having "a connection to reality" when it comes to opinions on baseball.

Tell us more about Kenny Lofton's HOF credentials.

Anytime.

Here's the link to my last post on Lofton. He's borderline. Definitely not automatic and not a guy I'd vote for this year if I was limited to 10 names. But I'd consider voting for him if there was no limit.

The fact that you think of this as some sort of way to discredit me says a lot about your (lack of) baseball knowledge.

The fact that you think that Lofton is borderline HOF discredits your baseball knowledge in and of itself.

Does it? According to Jay Jaffe, Lofton is slightly below the average CF in the Hall of Fame. That looks like a borderline candidate to me.

In case you're wondering, Biggio is also slightly below average for a hall of fame second baseman.

Who the hell is Jay Jaffe?  Is he another one of your "advanced metric" gurus?

Here's the thing with sabrmetrics.  I'm actually intrigued by them.  I think it's good to find new ways to look at old things, such as baseball stats.  But there needs to be some critical thinking involved with analyzing the results of these new stats and metrics.  The results still need to pass the smell test.

When these new stats spit out a result that indicates that Kenny Lofton is a borderline Hall of Fame candidate, then there's something drastically wrong somewhere.  I really don't care if Jay Jaffe, Jay Johnstone, or John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt writes a blog saying that KL should be in the HOF.  If it's a massively retarded conclusion, then that ***** all over the credibility of the advanced metrics, and of the people who endorse and worship them.

Jaffe invented the JAWS score. He is considered an expert on the Hall of Fame.

I really don't see what's so outrageous about calling Lofton a borderline candidate. Compare him to the other center fielders in the Hall. He certainly has a better case than Jack Morris and it's very likely that Morris gets elected this year.

Lofton doesn't get a vote from me. But he was damn good. I think we forget how good he was in the mid 90s. He was overshadowed somewhat by the Mannys and Thomes and Belles on his own team. Think about this - since, let's say, 1980, how many CFs can you name who had better careers than Lofton? Griffey, Beltran, maybe Dawson...and then..... Edmonds? Damon? When an argument can be made that Lofton is the 3rd or 4th best CF in the past 30 years, I get placing him in the conversation.

That said, he'd exit that conversation quickly, for me.

Beltran, FWIW, is a HOFer in my book. And it drove me nuts the lack of respect other Mets fans gave him. Hes fantastic.

Posted by burnsy483 on 11/27/2013 6:35:00 PM (view original):
Lofton doesn't get a vote from me. But he was damn good. I think we forget how good he was in the mid 90s. He was overshadowed somewhat by the Mannys and Thomes and Belles on his own team. Think about this - since, let's say, 1980, how many CFs can you name who had better careers than Lofton? Griffey, Beltran, maybe Dawson...and then..... Edmonds? Damon? When an argument can be made that Lofton is the 3rd or 4th best CF in the past 30 years, I get placing him in the conversation.

That said, he'd exit that conversation quickly, for me.

Me too. I wouldn't vote for him (especially with all the guys on the current ballot) but I'd have to think about it.