Bernie or Edgar? Topic

bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 10:23:00 AM (view original):

The difference between BW and EM was .075 OPS and 22 OPS+.

Seeing that BW played what is generally considered an important defensive position while EM spent the majority of his career picking his nose and scratching his *** on the bench when his team was on defense, I'd say that bridges the gap between the two.

That's a huge difference offensively.
12/3/2013 10:38 AM
burnsy483
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Yea, +1 on the last 2 posts.  It's a pretty big gap offensively.
12/3/2013 10:49 AM
burnsy483
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For reference, the difference between Cabrera and Trout offensively this year was 8 points ops+.
12/3/2013 10:50 AM
MikeT23
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His advantage at the plate is 20 walks per 162 games.   Or one walk every 8 games. 
12/3/2013 10:51 AM
MikeT23
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Per 162: 
Total Bases:  293 each
SB/CS: BW 11/7,  EM  4/2
GiDP:  BW 17, EM 15

Martinez walked more thus creating less outs and improving his averaged stats.   But it was walks. 

12/3/2013 10:57 AM
bad_luck
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You can try to minimize it all you want (in an attempt to show that they were similar offensive players???), but that 22 OPS+ difference is huge.

It's the difference between Bernie Williams and Marcus Giles. It's the difference between Stan Musial and Jack Clark. Joe Dimaggio or Hank Aaron and Danny Tartabull.

Other players that match Martinez's 147 OPS+: Mike Schmidt, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Jim Thome.
Other players that match Williams' 125 OPS+: JD Drew, Rick Monday, Eric Davis, Cliff Johnson
12/3/2013 11:20 AM
burnsy483
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Edgar was more likely to get a hit than Bernie when he batted.  More likely to get an extra base hit.  More likely to walk.  His career OBP is over .410!!! He was an elite batter.  To say "but it was walks" means you're faulting EM for not getting enough atbats to slug more because he was walking.
12/3/2013 11:28 AM
MikeT23
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I'm not trying to do anything but post the actual stats.     Do you see the total bases per 162?   Looks the same.   Do you see Bernie's slight edge in SB/CS?   Seems like it's offset by the GiDP.  

Would I prefer 20 walks over 20 outs?  Of course.   But let's not pretend that a walk every 8 games turns one guy into Superman while the other simply works for the newspaper.   It's a walk every 8 games.
12/3/2013 11:31 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 11:20:00 AM (view original):
You can try to minimize it all you want (in an attempt to show that they were similar offensive players???), but that 22 OPS+ difference is huge.

It's the difference between Bernie Williams and Marcus Giles. It's the difference between Stan Musial and Jack Clark. Joe Dimaggio or Hank Aaron and Danny Tartabull.

Other players that match Martinez's 147 OPS+: Mike Schmidt, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Jim Thome.
Other players that match Williams' 125 OPS+: JD Drew, Rick Monday, Eric Davis, Cliff Johnson

Yeah.

Here's where "critical thinking" slaps you REALLY HARD right across the face.

Bernie Williams and Rick Monday both calculate out to the same OPS+.

What's wrong with that picture?

How credible is OPS+ when it spews out gems of "truth" like that?

12/3/2013 11:32 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/3/2013 11:28:00 AM (view original):
Edgar was more likely to get a hit than Bernie when he batted.  More likely to get an extra base hit.  More likely to walk.  His career OBP is over .410!!! He was an elite batter.  To say "but it was walks" means you're faulting EM for not getting enough atbats to slug more because he was walking.
Not criticizing him for walking.   A walk is better than an out.   But it's a walk.  Some teams will INTENTIONALLY walk a batter.   Barry Bonds was given a free pass, intentional, 120 times one season.  
12/3/2013 11:36 AM
burnsy483
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OPS+ isn't WAR.  It's much simpler.  It compares OPS to others from that year.  How good were you relative to the rest of the league?  Bernie hit the same percentage better to the rest of the league as Rick Monday did to his.  Different eras.
12/3/2013 11:37 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 11:20:00 AM (view original):
You can try to minimize it all you want (in an attempt to show that they were similar offensive players???), but that 22 OPS+ difference is huge.

It's the difference between Bernie Williams and Marcus Giles. It's the difference between Stan Musial and Jack Clark. Joe Dimaggio or Hank Aaron and Danny Tartabull.

Other players that match Martinez's 147 OPS+: Mike Schmidt, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Jim Thome.
Other players that match Williams' 125 OPS+: JD Drew, Rick Monday, Eric Davis, Cliff Johnson

Yeah.

Here's where "critical thinking" slaps you REALLY HARD right across the face.

Bernie Williams and Rick Monday both calculate out to the same OPS+.

What's wrong with that picture?

How credible is OPS+ when it spews out gems of "truth" like that?

Maybe Bernie Williams wasn't that good???

Maybe that's the critical thinking mushroom stamp you're missing.
12/3/2013 11:40 AM
burnsy483
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Barry Bonds averaged 9 less TB than Mike Trout did for 162 games.  Way to walk a lot, Barry.
12/3/2013 11:40 AM
burnsy483
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****, Bonds only averaged 31 total bases per 162 games.  That's an extra single every 5 or 6 games.  Congrats, Barry.  I'll take the guy who can play a harder defensive position.  I can find a left fielder who can hit for power, I can't find one who can for power in CF.
12/3/2013 12:15 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/3/2013 11:40:00 AM (view original):
Barry Bonds averaged 9 less TB than Mike Trout did for 162 games.  Way to walk a lot, Barry.

So your argument is that one of the best hitters of this generation averaged 9 less TB in his roughly 20 year career than a guy who many think will be the best hitter of the next generation over his 1 3/4 years career?

Uh, OK.

12/3/2013 12:17 PM
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