Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 12:31:00 PM (view original):
Total bases are total bases.    If you think they're a stupid stat, I'm not sure what to say.    Walks are walks.   I'm a little less impressed by them but they're still a solid stat.    When two players manage to produce the same amount of TB per 162 over 15-20 year careers, it's fair to say, when they put the ball in play, they were comparable.    However, when one walks one more time every 8 games, he has more offensive value.   Not a great deal but more.  And those extra 20 BB per 162 will make his averaged stats better because he has less AB.

From about 7 hours ago.

Dude had a much higher walk rate.   That's it.   That's his massive value. 

Per 700 PA, EM outwalked BW by 104-83.  

You can keep repeating that over and over again.

Good to know that you have completely committed to the idea that Williams was almost as good offensively as Martinez.

Unfortunately for you, that's not true.

Bernie Williams --- 9053 PA --- .297/.381/.477 --- 125 OPS+
Edgar Martinez   --- 8674 PA --- .312/.418/.515 --- 147 OPS+

Only you would insist that those two careers are similar.

But out of those 21 plate appearances that he didn't walk, BW made more outs too. Not walking is significantly worse when you're not as good a hitter too.

I get that you ejaculate pinstripes, but your devotion to a slightly above average CF for your favorite team is irrational at best. Edgar was the best DH in history. Bernie was a top-five or top-ten CF for a few years.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by trsnoke on 12/3/2013 12:51:00 PM (view original):
It's better to look at by normalizing PA, I think.  Per 700 PA, Martinez has 10 more TB (more HR and more doubles) and the 20 more walks.  Williams hit into almost 30 more outs per 700 PA.

That's fair.   Do you think Williams produced 30 more outs in CF than Martinez did at DH?

Even though it wasn't directed to him, I'd like to hear BL's response to this.

So you're asking me a question about WAR?

This has nothing to do with WAR.

It's ******* basic baseball knowledge.

Who will produce more defensive outs . . . a full time center fielder, or a DH?

Take your time, if you need to.  Phone a friend.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.

Then give us your answer.

Hate to break it to you, but this is exactly what WAR is for.

The questions is, did the value that Williams provided in the field offset the massive offensive advantage that Martinez had?

The answer is no, it did not.

You need a formula to determine whether a center fielder or a designated hitter will produce more defensive outs?

Your dog couldn't tell you that?

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 7:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by trsnoke on 12/3/2013 12:51:00 PM (view original):
It's better to look at by normalizing PA, I think.  Per 700 PA, Martinez has 10 more TB (more HR and more doubles) and the 20 more walks.  Williams hit into almost 30 more outs per 700 PA.

That's fair.   Do you think Williams produced 30 more outs in CF than Martinez did at DH?

Even though it wasn't directed to him, I'd like to hear BL's response to this.

So you're asking me a question about WAR?

This has nothing to do with WAR.

It's ******* basic baseball knowledge.

Who will produce more defensive outs . . . a full time center fielder, or a DH?

Take your time, if you need to.  Phone a friend.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.

Then give us your answer.

Hate to break it to you, but this is exactly what WAR is for.

The questions is, did the value that Williams provided in the field offset the massive offensive advantage that Martinez had?

The answer is no, it did not.

You need a formula to determine whether a center fielder or a designated hitter will produce more defensive outs?

Your dog couldn't tell you that?

Do you think that a defensive out made by a fielder (a caught fly ball, for example) is equal in value to a hitter reaching base?

That wasn't the question, was it?

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:01:00 PM (view original):
That wasn't the question, was it?

That's the premise of your question, though, that a fielded out is equivalent to a hitter reaching base.

I don't agree. Do you?

A couple of questions for MikeT23.  How would you rate Williams as a CF?  How much value do you attribute to his fielding vs someone who was a DH?

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 8:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:01:00 PM (view original):
That wasn't the question, was it?

That's the premise of your question, though, that a fielded out is equivalent to a hitter reaching base.

I don't agree. Do you?

Holy ****, really.

That wasn't the premise of my question.  Go back and reread.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 8:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:01:00 PM (view original):
That wasn't the question, was it?

That's the premise of your question, though, that a fielded out is equivalent to a hitter reaching base.

I don't agree. Do you?

Holy ****, really.

That wasn't the premise of my question.  Go back and reread.

Um???

Someone said that, over 700 PA, Martinez reached base 30 more times than Williams.

Mike asked if Williams made 30 more defensive outs in CF than Martinez did as DH.

Either that question is pointless or the person asking it thinks a defensive out made by a fielder is equivalent to a hitter reaching base. You tell me.

Probably not.  I'm not sure what the appropriate ratio of defensive outs to hitter reaching base is.  Please, enlighten me!

Your turn . . . who provides more defensive value to a team . . . a center fielder or a designated hitter?

It's a simple question, but take your time.  Phone a friend if you wish.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.  Crack open a fortune cookie.  Wherever you feel that you need to go to try to get the correct answer.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:29:00 PM (view original):
Probably not.  I'm not sure what the appropriate ratio of defensive outs to hitter reaching base is.  Please, enlighten me!

Your turn . . . who provides more defensive value to a team . . . a center fielder or a designated hitter?

It's a simple question, but take your time.  Phone a friend if you wish.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.  Crack open a fortune cookie.  Wherever you feel that you need to go to try to get the correct answer.

Obviously a center fielder has more defensive value than a DH. I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 8:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:29:00 PM (view original):
Probably not.  I'm not sure what the appropriate ratio of defensive outs to hitter reaching base is.  Please, enlighten me!

Your turn . . . who provides more defensive value to a team . . . a center fielder or a designated hitter?

It's a simple question, but take your time.  Phone a friend if you wish.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.  Crack open a fortune cookie.  Wherever you feel that you need to go to try to get the correct answer.

Obviously a center fielder has more defensive value than a DH. I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

It took you five posts over nearly a four hour timespan to answer the damn question.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by trsnoke on 12/3/2013 12:51:00 PM (view original):
It's better to look at by normalizing PA, I think.  Per 700 PA, Martinez has 10 more TB (more HR and more doubles) and the 20 more walks.  Williams hit into almost 30 more outs per 700 PA.

That's fair.   Do you think Williams produced 30 more outs in CF than Martinez did at DH?

Even though it wasn't directed to him, I'd like to hear BL's response to this.

So you're asking me a question about WAR?

This has nothing to do with WAR.

It's ******* basic baseball knowledge.

Who will produce more defensive outs . . . a full time center fielder, or a DH?

Take your time, if you need to.  Phone a friend.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.

Then give us your answer.

Hate to break it to you, but this is exactly what WAR is for.

The questions is, did the value that Williams provided in the field offset the massive offensive advantage that Martinez had?

The answer is no, it did not.

Um, maybe you should have read this post.