Bernie or Edgar? Topic

bad_luck
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 7:26:00 PM (view original):
You can keep repeating that over and over again.

Good to know that you have completely committed to the idea that Williams was almost as good offensively as Martinez.

Unfortunately for you, that's not true.

Bernie Williams --- 9053 PA --- .297/.381/.477 --- 125 OPS+
Edgar Martinez   --- 8674 PA --- .312/.418/.515 --- 147 OPS+

Only you would insist that those two careers are similar.
Since mike is only interested in providing prorated numbers, here are their career numbers.

12/4/2013 9:43 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 5:57:00 AM (view original):
You answered a question that I didn't ask.
Did I?
Yes, you did.

Go back and reread.
12/4/2013 9:46 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:41:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 8:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 8:29:00 PM (view original):
Probably not.  I'm not sure what the appropriate ratio of defensive outs to hitter reaching base is.  Please, enlighten me!

Your turn . . . who provides more defensive value to a team . . . a center fielder or a designated hitter?

It's a simple question, but take your time.  Phone a friend if you wish.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.  Crack open a fortune cookie.  Wherever you feel that you need to go to try to get the correct answer.
Obviously a center fielder has more defensive value than a DH. I don't think anyone has said otherwise.
It was actually 18 minutes. Not 10.
Time must be measured differently on your planet.
12/4/2013 9:50 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 5:57:00 AM (view original):
You answered a question that I didn't ask.
Did I?
Yes, you did.

Go back and reread.
Just quoted the question and answer. My post was 18 minutes after yours.
12/4/2013 10:05 AM
burnsy483
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You guys are the best.
12/4/2013 10:15 AM
ncmusician_7
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Posted by ncmusician_7 on 12/3/2013 8:13:00 PM (view original):
A couple of questions for MikeT23.  How would you rate Williams as a CF?  How much value do you attribute to his fielding vs someone who was a DH?
?
12/4/2013 10:50 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Yea, I'd argue the additional slugging and the 21 walks is significant.  Would you say there's a significant difference between a .265 hitter and a .300 hitter? It's 20 hits over 600 atbats. Unless it's your point that walks are insignificant. 

The additional slugging amounts to 12 total bases.   I'll let you do the math but it's about 1 extra base every 15 days.   If you want to jump around over a walk every 8 games, good for you.   But it's a single walk every 3 series. 

12/4/2013 11:05 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by ncmusician_7 on 12/4/2013 10:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 12/3/2013 8:13:00 PM (view original):
A couple of questions for MikeT23.  How would you rate Williams as a CF?  How much value do you attribute to his fielding vs someone who was a DH?
?
I was never happy with Bernie in the OF because he didn't look like he was hustling.   Fortunately, I got to see a bad CF when Damon signed with the Yanks.   Bernie was above average.    Above average CF vs DH for defense?   A lot.
12/4/2013 11:07 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 8:11:00 AM (view original):
For those who aren't interested in reading all this, here's another breakdown per 700 PA(roughly a full season):

Williams:  H 180, 35 2B, 4 3B, 22 HR, 83 BB
Martinez:   H 181, 41 2B, 1 3B, 24 HR, 104 BB

For those who've used "massive" and "significant" in relation to the offensive edge Martinez had, please feel free to point it out.     If you're having trouble, I'll help you.   It's something that happens when you don't swing the bat.

Just for reference.
12/4/2013 11:08 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Yea, I'd argue the additional slugging and the 21 walks is significant.  Would you say there's a significant difference between a .265 hitter and a .300 hitter? It's 20 hits over 600 atbats. Unless it's your point that walks are insignificant. 

The additional slugging amounts to 12 total bases.   I'll let you do the math but it's about 1 extra base every 15 days.   If you want to jump around over a walk every 8 games, good for you.   But it's a single walk every 3 series. 

3.7% in on base is the difference between Mickey Mantle and JD Drew.

But that's no big deal, right?
12/4/2013 11:08 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 8:11:00 AM (view original):
For those who aren't interested in reading all this, here's another breakdown per 700 PA(roughly a full season):

Williams:  H 180, 35 2B, 4 3B, 22 HR, 83 BB
Martinez:   H 181, 41 2B, 1 3B, 24 HR, 104 BB

For those who've used "massive" and "significant" in relation to the offensive edge Martinez had, please feel free to point it out.     If you're having trouble, I'll help you.   It's something that happens when you don't swing the bat.

Just for reference.
That 22% in career OPS+ is massive.

You keep ignoring that, but it doesn't go away.

Williams was nowhere near as good offensively.
12/4/2013 11:10 AM
MikeT23
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I'll not repeat myself.   One walk every 8 games.    Woo-hooo!!!!!  BESTEST DESIGNATED WALKER EVER!!!!!!
12/4/2013 11:11 AM
bad_luck
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Bernie Williams had the same OPS+ as Rick Monday.

Edgar Martinez had the same OPS+ as Mike Schmidt and Willie McCovey.
12/4/2013 11:12 AM
MikeT23
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The numbers are what they are.    Edgar Martinez was a far superior walker to Bernie Williams.

**** YEAH FOR NOT SWINGING THE BAT!!!!!!

12/4/2013 11:12 AM
MikeT23
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You know who could draw a walk against Clayton Kershaw?   Me.
You know who could probably never get a hit against Clayton Kershaw?   Also me.

**** YEAH FOR WALKING!!!!!
12/4/2013 11:13 AM
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