Posted by tecwrg on 12/10/2013 12:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/10/2013 12:12:00 PM (view original):He won two CYA's.
Posted by tecwrg on 12/10/2013 8:22:00 AM (view original):No. Be dominant, be better than everyone else, not "as good" as the best guys.
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/10/2013 7:31:00 AM (view original):"I want you to have a dominant peak, to be considered by many to be the best for multiple years. I don't think it's obvious Halladay was the best for more than a few years."
I don't care much if a player leads the league in RBI. Mays did lead the league in OPS+ 6 times, and added a ton of value with his legs and defense. He also has the counting stats to be HOF-worthy than Halladay does not have.
If you want me to vote for a player for the HOF, and you don't have the counting numbers to do it, I want you to have a dominant peak, to be considered by many to be the best for multiple years. I don't think it's obvious Halladay was the best for more than a few years. Although, he did lead in ERA+ once, which is probably a better stat than ERA. So I'll give you that stat. But yea, be dominant if you have a shorter career. Be Pedro. Be Koufax.
Over a nine season span (2003 - 2011), Halliday went 151-68 (average of 17-8), with three 20 win seasons, a 2.97 ERA, and a 147+ ERA plus. He also led or tied for the league lead in complete games in 7 of those 9 seasons, and finished in the top five of Cy Young Award voting 7 out of those 9 seasons (winning twice).
How does that not fit your "requirement"?
Be Koufax. Be Pedro. Or, pitch for longer.
Is that not "better"?
There are other guys who won 2 Cy Youngs who don't have the career for the HOF. McClain, Saberhagen, Lincecum and Johan more recently. Doesn't make them HOFers.
Tom Glavine will make the HOF because he won 300 games. He had a great peak, and was very good for a long time, and he'll get rewarded for having both of those. If he retired after age 35 like Halladay, he would have the following stats:
222-128, 3.36 ERA, 123 ERA+, 1.28 WHIP, 2 Cy Youngs
It's not a HOF career, despite the 2 Cy Young awards, and despite being considered one of the best in the game during his prime. He was overshadowed by a HOFer on his own team, and the argument could be made that he was 3rd best for a time. He was never dominant relative to his peers in MLB. Now, obviously Halladay was better than Glavine in their primes. But the point stands, I don't think he was good enough during his prime to make up for the lack of "counting stats." I think he's close. IMO, he needed 2-3 more "very good" years.