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MikeT23
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He did EXACTLY what people wanted him to do to prove he didn't use.   EXACTLY what people suggested all the PED accused should do.    For what?   So they could say "Yeah, whatever.  I know he used"?    He was guilty regardless of what he did despite being led to believe his name could be cleared. 
1/9/2014 9:11 AM
tecwrg
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That's not answering my question.

Do YOU think he used?
1/9/2014 9:13 AM
MikeT23
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Wrong person to ask.    Because I don't care who used and I think up to 90% at least experimented with some type of PED in the 90s/early 2000s.    I think Jeter used(had one of his best seasons after seperating his shoulder and missing 120 games).  I think Maddux used(did he ever even miss a start?).   I think Glavine used(same as Maddux).  I think Thomas used(injured in his mid 30s, comes back in Oakland of all places, has a big year at 38).    If I'm not voting for players I THINK used, I'm the Gurnek(sp?) guy who votes for nobody from the so-called steroid era.  

1/9/2014 9:32 AM
tecwrg
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I wasn't asking if you would or would not vote for people who used.  I know your thoughts on that.

I can infer from your answer that you DO think that Clemens used.

So do you think that just because of your blanket "I think up to 90% at least experimented with some type of PED" and you're going with the 90% odds, or do you think there is more reason to believe Clemens used than any other randomly chosen player?
1/9/2014 9:42 AM
MikeT23
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If you listed his career on a graph that denotes peaks and valleys, I'm pretty sure you'd come to the conclusion that he found some magic elixir on the back end of his career. 

That said, he went to court to clear his name and the court could not find him guilty of perjury regarding his sworn statements on PED use.   

1/9/2014 9:48 AM
tecwrg
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You do understand that HOF voting does not have to clear through the U.S. legal system, don't you?

This is what it comes down to.  There are a lot of people who don't think that PED users should be "rewarded" for their cheating any more than they already have (i.e., big contracts during their careers).  The HOF is the ultimate reward for MLB players.

There is ample reason to believe that Clemens enhanced his performance with PEDs.  Probably more so than (pick any random player from any random team over the past 20 years or so).  Even you seem to agree with that, even though you don't care whether he used or not.

And that's why Clemens gets more scrutiny than Maddux or Glavine.  There is a little more in Clemens case than "just about everybody did it" than there is with Maddux or Glavine.

1/9/2014 10:03 AM
MikeT23
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Now you're not answering my question.    Clemens did everything that's been demanded of the accused.    Yet, when the verdict came in, the overwhelming response was "Meh, whatever.  I know he used."

What EXACTLY are the accused supposed to do?   Piazza was kept out because he had zits on his back and he hit homers.   There's certainly no evidence beyond that of him using.   What's he to do?

1/9/2014 10:09 AM
tecwrg
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I don't have an answer for that.  Maybe there's nothing that Clemens can do.  Except for maybe tell the truth if, in fact, he's lying.

If he's already telling the truth, has never taken PEDs, and the whole thing is just an unfortunate huge pile of **** that has fallen on his head . . . well, he'll just have to live with it.  Sometimes bad things happen to good people.
1/9/2014 10:18 AM
MikeT23
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That seems a bit problematic if you want to have a monument for the greatest players of all-time.    You know, like a Hall of Fame.
1/9/2014 10:24 AM
tecwrg
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http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/bbwaa

Here's the tricky part:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

If a player's integrity or character is in question, then that's supposed to be a consideration.  If one has either knowledge, or credible reason to believe, that a player such as Clemens (or Bonds, or Sosa, or McGwire, or Palmeiro, etc.) cheated and lied about it, then they are supposed to factor that into their decision making process.

1/9/2014 10:31 AM
MikeT23
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Would acne on one's back be a "credible reason to believe"?
1/9/2014 10:37 AM
bad_luck
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But the rules don't specify how much to factor it in. Clemens, if not the best ever, is among the top 2 or 3 pitchers of all time. Bonds is among the top 2 or 3 position players ever. A hall without them is worthless.
1/9/2014 10:38 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 10:37:00 AM (view original):
Would acne on one's back be a "credible reason to believe"?
For some people, apparently. 

For the record, I voted for Piazza in my voting thread.  I don't feel that there is a significant enough reason to believe he PED'd to not vote for him.

Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro are all tainted in some way.
1/9/2014 10:46 AM
MikeT23
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I could make a case that he definitely used PED.   
1/9/2014 10:49 AM
MikeT23
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Drafted in the 62nd round as a favor to Tommy Lasorda, Piazza went on the have two non-descript minor league seasons.   After his season in Florida, the seeming hub for all "anti-aging" facility, Piazza went beast mode in 1992.   He continued to destroy pitching, in pitcher's parks, for the next 10-12 seasons until PEDs became a MLB hot-button issue.   He then became a mere mortal and retired a few seasons later.
1/9/2014 11:13 AM
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