Oh yeah no doubt - I'm just huddling in the corner trying to figure out my own problems at this point. I think that hypothesis might work for my situation (weak MAC team losing to D1 Sims; not more talented teams getting beaten by much worse Sims, or certain offensive formations simply not working as expected.)

Posted by jaxbaker on 1/7/2014 8:06:00 AM (view original):
lol examinerebb your killing me here college guys do play high school football and many years before that so to say they don't understand the playbook is complete crap.there is plenty of guys that come straight to the nfl out of college and start in their 1 or 2nd year and have success even qbs Russell Wilson,.Andrew luck etc and lots of other position players.So to sit here and say that guys that are average to below average players in the nfl or college just because they have experience should outperform studs that are in there 1st or 2nd year because they understand the playbook better is complete stupidity and I wish you would drop that argument it doesn't work.Stars and great players are called that for a reason,sure with experience they will get better that's obvious and we are not talking about trotting out teams full of freshmen and sophmores all people want is a game where if you play some first year and second year guys in your lineup and you dominate in every area why should you lose to crap teams because they have a team full of seniors that understand the playbook better.Peyton manning and Andrew luck probably understood the playbook better then 80 percent of players in the nfl in their 2nd year.Players at these levels are not dummies or they would not be there and iq should not play that big of role in this game that's just a way of evening the playing field.If you dominate in all areas you win most times in any sport is anyone going to argue that.NO THATS ALL PEOPLE WANT.AND TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY LOST AND NO SORRY FORMATION IQ IS A DUMB ARGUEMENT WHEN YOUR DOMINATED IN EVERY WAY AS FAR AS TALENT.sure you should have to practice formations to get better and obviously when you have experience you are better just don't have it be such a big part of the game and it is right now and so is playcalling and they shouldn't be

I've said repeatedly that incoming freshman should have a higher formation IQ, and I also think that some should come in closer to ready to play every down.  But talent doesn't always win out, nor should it.  You could cherry-pick the world's greatest athletes from Olympic track teams, weightlifting events, etc., throw shoulder pads and helmets on them, and they would get destroyed by a decent football team.  Even though their speed, strength, athleticism, etc. is miles ahead of the football team's.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this:  It's silly to ask for a more realistic sim, then complain when our unrealistic practice plans result in losses.  The simple solution is to continue to recruit the best football players we can, then adjust the way we practice so that it matches more evenly with reality.  Real life football teams don't spend 75% or more of their practice time on weightlifting and individual drills, with token time thrown towards offense, defense and special teams.  If they did, they would lose to less talented teams too.

I agree with your theory the thing your missing is their attributes(GI TECH STR ETC) all have to do with playing football nothing else so if you dominate in every way in every position on the field it should not matter if a crappy sim is full of seniors and uses all their practice time for formation practice they should never win and I mean never.put 180 mins into practice I bet you only can go up so much.So if talent is not king then what is the sense having a sim game if the only chance you have to win is having a team full of seniors.I get your point freshmen should come in with a higher formation IQ maybe that would do the trick I don't know.Just the way it is now makes no sense at all,IQ and gameplanning are counting for way to much

Agreed on the atttributes.  It's silly to me that an attribute called Game Instinct could be be improved by watching film.  Game Instinct is improved by practicing in your formations and playing games, in real life.  You can't develop football instincts by watching television.  But it is what is, as far as the limitations of the sim.  Maybe we need to think of game instinct more as recognizing opponents' formations and tendencies then as actual instinct.  If that were the case, you'd still need the high Formation IQ.  Think (in the extreme, of course) of watching a 6 year old's tee-ball game:  they all know they're supposed to field the ball when it's hit (recognition), but they all run to the ball to field it and nobody covers their base (Formation IQ).

Posted by jaxbaker on 1/7/2014 11:00:00 AM (view original):
I agree with your theory the thing your missing is their attributes(GI TECH STR ETC) all have to do with playing football nothing else so if you dominate in every way in every position on the field it should not matter if a crappy sim is full of seniors and uses all their practice time for formation practice they should never win and I mean never.put 180 mins into practice I bet you only can go up so much.So if talent is not king then what is the sense having a sim game if the only chance you have to win is having a team full of seniors.I get your point freshmen should come in with a higher formation IQ maybe that would do the trick I don't know.Just the way it is now makes no sense at all,IQ and gameplanning are counting for way to much

I agree with the premise jax makes - the values listed as attributes are the relative values (strength,speed, elusiveness etc) of those players as football players, not track or weightlifting athletes. Therefore, a FR with greater strength, speed etc than a SR is better in a football sense. I can see where a formation IQ advantage may adjust the ability of an offense to get extra yards against a defense with lower values, but that would be after the direct attribute match-ups are made, perhaps creating a wash. Right now, it seems to be added first and attribute match-ups are secondary. Add in the absurd all or none runvspass option we get on defense and that makes the attribute match-up even less of a factor. Attribute match-ups should be first - then modified appropriately with the other factors such as Formation IQ, play calling and fatigue.

I completely understand where you're coming from, I'm just not sure it's right.  Say you play defensive end and I play offensive tackle.  You are way stronger than me, you're more athletic and you tackle extremely well.  But you are single-minded in going after the football.  You're more than likely going to get past me all game long.  You're also more than likely not going to set the edge, contain the QB in the pocket, and you'll overpursue and bite on play fakes and counters all game long.  So how effective are you really going to be in the game?  Attribute-wise, you're a freak of nature and winning the one-on-one battle all day.  But you're killing your team because you're consistently out of position.  I've played with these kinds of guys before, and we've all seen them.  It's coaching (and willingness to learn) that fixes it in the end.

Posted by examinerebb on 1/7/2014 11:33:00 AM (view original):
I completely understand where you're coming from, I'm just not sure it's right.  Say you play defensive end and I play offensive tackle.  You are way stronger than me, you're more athletic and you tackle extremely well.  But you are single-minded in going after the football.  You're more than likely going to get past me all game long.  You're also more than likely not going to set the edge, contain the QB in the pocket, and you'll overpursue and bite on play fakes and counters all game long.  So how effective are you really going to be in the game?  Attribute-wise, you're a freak of nature and winning the one-on-one battle all day.  But you're killing your team because you're consistently out of position.  I've played with these kinds of guys before, and we've all seen them.  It's coaching (and willingness to learn) that fixes it in the end.

To me, the points made here are not formIQ...they are technique and game instinct.

They would be on the face of how the attributes are named.  I'm thinking of it more it terms of what type of practice improves those skills.  Film study helps you improve technique and game instinct in the sim.  Film study wouldn't help (much) in this particular instance.  You could show him how the area he vacated was exploited on film, but you'd have to get the guy on the field, against an offense of some kind, to demonstrate how staying home and forcing the runner to the middle of the field benefits the defense.  It would have to be drilled into him by repetition in game-like scenarios.  You'd have to bait him, in the heat of the moment, over and over until you killed that instinct to make a straight line for the ball.  The only type of practice like that we have available to us in the sim is formation practice.

If practices worked like that they would gain attributes even if they never spent a minute in the skill practices. Maybe not much strength, but every game skill and endurance etc. It would change the way the practice runs almost completely.

Jaxbaker + 1,000 nice posts! My issue is if hypothetically formation IQ is that much of an impact my Florida A&M team had 24 Seniors all with relatively high formation IQ about 10 less than the sim I played. However the players skills were Night and Day better like a D-1 team playing a D1AA team in fact my team if it was in D-1 would be a top 20 D1A team Yet a lose to a Sim because of a nominal difference of 10 IQ points compared to 82 overall team points. That's absurd, where's Oriole when you need him god knows he has read this post at least part of it lol.

BTW- I posted  a ticket trying to understand what's more important Skill or Formation IQ? I'll post the response here.

Posted by jfootball88 on 1/7/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Jaxbaker + 1,000 nice posts! My issue is if hypothetically formation IQ is that much of an impact my Florida A&M team had 24 Seniors all with relatively high formation IQ about 10 less than the sim I played. However the players skills were Night and Day better like a D-1 team playing a D1AA team in fact my team if it was in D-1 would be a top 20 D1A team Yet a lose to a Sim because of a nominal difference of 10 IQ points compared to 82 overall team points. That's absurd, where's Oriole when you need him god knows he has read this post at least part of it lol.

Now THAT doesn't seem right at all.  Unless there's a point of critical mass (players can't function well at all unless their formation IQ is > x), that talent margin should overcome the formation IQ margin.

Posted by jfootball88 on 1/7/2014 3:35:00 PM (view original):
BTW- I posted  a ticket trying to understand what's more important Skill or Formation IQ? I'll post the response here.

I'll bet the response you get is along the lines "both" r important.

Will find out soon enough should be interesting always is. It's never a solution more of just a pat on the back better luck next time with no direct answer.