ESPN HOF ballot revealed. Topic

One argument in favour of Mussina that I rarely seem to hear (masterdebate touched on it) is that he was an ace. For the most part, Glavine was a #2 or #3 on his teams.

A) stands to reason Glavine would have had friendlier pitching matchups over time, and B) He knew that if he had a bad game, Maddux and Smoltz could pick up some of the slack in the rotation. Mussina was the go-to guy in some bad rotations - the O's needed him to win his starts. That's a lot more pressure. I think he is vastly underrated.
1/11/2014 2:00 PM
Why is there pressure to win when your team is losing 100 plus games a year?  I'd say there's more pressure when your team is expected to win 100 games a year.
1/11/2014 9:45 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 1/11/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 1/11/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Glavine had five 20 win seasons.  Mussina had only one, in his final season.

Glavine also had 2 CY awards, and finished 2nd or 3rd four other times.  Mussina only had one top 3 finish.

Those are meaningful differences between the two.
20 wins is arbitrary. Mussina won 17 or more games 8 times. Glavine did it 6 times.

And anyway, the pitcher win/loss stat is useless.
20 is arbitrary?  And 17 is not?

And despite your continued assertions, pitcher W/L is a relevant stat.  Unless you can produce an example of a pitcher getting credit for a win in a game that his team loses.
1/11/2014 10:18 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 1/11/2014 10:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/11/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 1/11/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Glavine had five 20 win seasons.  Mussina had only one, in his final season.

Glavine also had 2 CY awards, and finished 2nd or 3rd four other times.  Mussina only had one top 3 finish.

Those are meaningful differences between the two.
20 wins is arbitrary. Mussina won 17 or more games 8 times. Glavine did it 6 times.

And anyway, the pitcher win/loss stat is useless.
20 is arbitrary?  And 17 is not?

And despite your continued assertions, pitcher W/L is a relevant stat.  Unless you can produce an example of a pitcher getting credit for a win in a game that his team loses.
That was my point. There's nothing special about 20. Or 21. Or 17. Moving the win number up or down a couple makes whichever pitcher you want look better.

What if I gave you examples of pitchers pitching absolutely horrible and still getting credit for the win? Or throwing an amazing game and getting the loss?

Hilariously ironic that the guy who freaks out when someone uses WAR readily accepts pitcher wins as evidence of one pitcher's superiority.
1/11/2014 10:39 PM
Aaron Small must have been one of the best pitchers on the planet for a year, then.
1/11/2014 11:15 PM
And of course Chris George, with his ERA over 7 and 9 and 6 record.
1/11/2014 11:21 PM
Small sample size.   Wanna list the ****** pitchers who won 200 games?
1/12/2014 12:11 PM
Rank Player (yrs, age) Wins Throws
1. Cy Young+ (22) 511 R
2. Walter Johnson+ (21) 417 R
3. Pete Alexander+ (20) 373 R
  Christy Mathewson+ (17) 373 R
5. Pud Galvin+ (15) 365 R
6. Warren Spahn+ (21) 363 L
7. Kid Nichols+ (15) 361 R
8. Greg Maddux+ (23) 355 R
9. Roger Clemens (24) 354 R
10. Tim Keefe+ (14) 342 R
11. Steve Carlton+ (24) 329 L
12. John Clarkson+ (12) 328 R
13. Eddie Plank+ (17) 326 L
14. Nolan Ryan+ (27) 324 R
  Don Sutton+ (23) 324 R
16. Phil Niekro+ (24) 318 R
17. Gaylord Perry+ (22) 314 R
18. Tom Seaver+ (20) 311 R
19. Old Hoss Radbourn+ (12) 309 R
20. Mickey Welch+ (13) 307 R
21. Tom Glavine+ (22) 305 L
22. Randy Johnson (22) 303 L
23. Lefty Grove+ (17) 300 L
  Early Wynn+ (23) 300 R
25. Bobby Mathews (15) 297 R
26. Tommy John (26) 288 L
27. Bert Blyleven+ (22) 287 R
28. Robin Roberts+ (19) 286 R
29. Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 284 R
  Tony Mullane (13) 284  
31. Jim Kaat (25) 283 L
32. Red Ruffing+ (22) 273 R
33. Burleigh Grimes+ (19) 270 R
  Mike Mussina (18) 270 R
35. Jamie Moyer (25) 269 L
36. Jim Palmer+ (19) 268 R
37. Bob Feller+ (18) 266 R
  Eppa Rixey+ (21) 266 L
39. Jim McCormick (10) 265 R
40. Gus Weyhing (14) 264 R
41. Ted Lyons+ (21) 260 R
42. Andy Pettitte (18, 41) 256 L
43. Red Faber+ (20) 254 R
  Jack Morris (18) 254 R
45. Carl Hubbell+ (16) 253 L
46. Al Spalding+ (8) 252 R
47. Bob Gibson+ (17) 251 R
48. Vic Willis+ (13) 249 R
49. Jack Quinn (23) 247 R
50. Joe McGinnity+ (10) 246 R
Rank Player (yrs, age) Wins Throws
  Amos Rusie+ (10) 246 R
52. Dennis Martinez (23) 245 R
  Jack Powell (16) 245 R
54. Juan Marichal+ (16) 243 R
55. Herb Pennock+ (22) 241 L
56. Frank Tanana (21) 240 L
57. Mordecai Brown+ (14) 239 R
  David Wells (21) 239 L
59. Clark Griffith+ (21) 237 R
  Waite Hoyt+ (21) 237 R
61. Whitey Ford+ (16) 236 L
62. Tommy Bond (10) 234 R
63. Charlie Buffinton (11) 233 R
64. Sad Sam Jones (22) 229 R
  Luis Tiant (19) 229 R
  Will White (10) 229 R
67. George Mullin (14) 228 R
68. Jim Bunning+ (17) 224 R
  Catfish Hunter+ (15) 224 R
70. Hooks Dauss (15) 223 R
  Paul Derringer (15) 223 R
  Mel Harder (20) 223 R
73. Jerry Koosman (19) 222 L
74. Joe Niekro (22) 221 R
75. Jerry Reuss (22) 220 L
76. Pedro Martinez (18) 219 R
  Kenny Rogers (20) 219 L
78. Bob Caruthers (10) 218 R
  Earl Whitehill (17) 218 L
80. Freddie Fitzsimmons (19) 217 R
  Mickey Lolich (16) 217 L
82. Wilbur Cooper (15) 216 L
  Charlie Hough (25) 216 R
  Curt Schilling (20) 216 R
85. Stan Coveleski+ (14) 215 R
  Jim Perry (17) 215 R
87. Rick Reuschel (19) 214 R
88. John Smoltz (21) 213 R
89. Chief Bender+ (16) 212 R
90. Kevin Brown (19) 211 R
  Bobo Newsom (20) 211 R
  Billy Pierce (18) 211 L
  Bob Welch (17) 211 R
94. Jesse Haines+ (19) 210 R
95. Vida Blue (17) 209 L
  Eddie Cicotte (14) 209 R
  Don Drysdale+ (14) 209 R
  Milt Pappas (17) 209 R
99. Carl Mays (15) 208 R
100. Bob Lemon+ (15) 207 R
Rank Player (yrs, age) Wins Throws
  Hal Newhouser+ (17) 207 L
102. Tim Hudson (15, 37) 205 R
  CC Sabathia (13, 32) 205 L
104. Orel Hershiser (18) 204 R
  Al Orth (15) 204 R
106. Lew Burdette (18) 203 R
  Roy Halladay (16, 36) 203 R
  Silver King (10) 203 R
  Jack Stivetts (11) 203 R
110. Rube Marquard+ (18) 201 L
  Charlie Root (17) 201 R
112. Chuck Finley (17) 200 L
  George Uhle (17) 200 R
  Tim Wakefield (19) 200 R
1/12/2014 1:05 PM (edited)
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/lets-get-rid-of-pitching-wins/
1/12/2014 1:04 PM
Rank Player (yrs, age) Losses Throws
1. Cy Young+ (22) 316 R
2. Pud Galvin+ (15) 310 R
3. Nolan Ryan+ (27) 292 R
4. Walter Johnson+ (21) 279 R
5. Phil Niekro+ (24) 274 R
6. Gaylord Perry+ (22) 265 R
7. Don Sutton+ (23) 256 R
8. Jack Powell (16) 254 R
9. Eppa Rixey+ (21) 251 L
10. Bert Blyleven+ (22) 250 R
11. Bobby Mathews (15) 248 R
12. Robin Roberts+ (19) 245 R
  Warren Spahn+ (21) 245 L
14. Steve Carlton+ (24) 244 L
  Early Wynn+ (23) 244 R
16. Jim Kaat (25) 237 L
17. Frank Tanana (21) 236 L
18. Gus Weyhing (14) 232 R
19. Tommy John (26) 231 L
20. Bob Friend (16) 230 R
  Ted Lyons+ (21) 230 R
22. Greg Maddux+ (23) 227 R
23. Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 226 R
24. Tim Keefe+ (14) 225 R
  Red Ruffing+ (22) 225 R
26. Bobo Newsom (20) 222 R
27. Tony Mullane (13) 220  
28. Jack Quinn (23) 218 R
29. Sad Sam Jones (22) 217 R
30. Charlie Hough (25) 216 R
31. Jim McCormick (10) 214 R
32. Red Faber+ (20) 213 R
33. Paul Derringer (15) 212 R
  Chick Fraser (14) 212 R
  Burleigh Grimes+ (19) 212 R
36. Mickey Welch+ (13) 210 R
37. Jerry Koosman (19) 209 L
  Jamie Moyer (25) 209 L
39. Pete Alexander+ (20) 208 R
  Kid Nichols+ (15) 208 R
41. Tom Seaver+ (20) 205 R
  Vic Willis+ (13) 205 R
43. Joe Niekro (22) 204 R
  Jim Whitney (10) 204 R
45. Tom Glavine+ (22) 203 L
1/12/2014 1:05 PM
Joe Niekro and Lew Burdette had more than 200 wins each, and both had a career ERA+ under 100.  They weren't "sh!tty", but they weren't good either.
1/12/2014 1:12 PM
Those two were below average by definition.

Pitcher win loss record is one of the absolute worst ways to evaluate a pitcher.
1/12/2014 3:52 PM
of the 45 "losingest" pitchers of all time, 26 are Hall of Famers.
1/12/2014 4:21 PM
So they got to pitch a lot?

That happens when they're good. 
1/12/2014 4:23 PM
yes, but just like pitchers get wins from their teammates, like the examples I posted above as two glaringly obvious ones, pitchers also get losses even when they don't pitch poorly. Just ask poor Harvey Haddix. Wins and losses do not determine the successfulness of the pitcher as much as we would like to think they do. Otherwise, why would Felix Hernandez have won a Cy Young with only 13 wins?
1/12/2014 4:46 PM
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ESPN HOF ballot revealed. Topic

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